Israel rescues four hostages alive from Gaza who were captured by Hamas at Nova music festival on October 7 - including girl seen kidnapped on back of motorbike

[keenforhelp]

Well done Israel - fantastic, wonderful news
xxx

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13508615/Israel-rescues-four-hostages-alive-Gaza-Noa-Argamani-motorbike.html

Yes, but I seriously doubt Sinwar is actually willing to die in the fighting himself. This is his propaganda message directed at all those he perceives to be allies - Gazans, West Bank, Hezbollah, Houthis, Iran, etc.

What he wants is to rouse all these groups of people and whip them up into an emotional state to the point where they will go on to engage in the war itself.

I think he knows he, his terrorist organisation and his supporters are being slowly strangled in a double boa constrictor type of force.

For them, it's now about survival - militarily, politically AND socially in Gaza.

This is a demonstration of Sinwar's fantasies of annihilation and destruction. He's thinking about an apocalyptic war now.

We're seeing the words of an increasingly desperate despot. He's well aware of HUMINT sources inside Gaza and Hamas, but seems to be unable to find out their identities.

Sinwar can f* right off. He and his colleagues knew this outcome was likely. I can understand the mentality of people wanting to choose how to die on their own terms, but they did this, choosing how other people would die, without those people's consent, and killing over a thousand other people in the process. While they hide in relative safety and in some cases luxury. And innocent people in Gaza and Israel, and around the world, suffer.

A quick thought - by evoking the grandson of the Prophet Muhammad and the battle of Karbala in the 7th century.....Sinwar is obviously fusing religion with Nationalism in addition to acts of violence.

Although very dangerous, that kind of ideology can be very effective especially if the person transmitting that message is a powerful public speaker, charismatic, inspires widespread support, etc.

He knows exactly what he's doing and, crucially, he knows full well what the cost to Hamas, Gaza, West Bank and the whole Middle East Region would be.

If he succeeds in his clear objective with his messages, then he and Hamas will massively escalate the conflict. It won't just affect Gaza anymore.

All eyes on Sinwar, the Hamas leadership as a whole, the Hamas members and anyone else who supports their aims.

I don't like to predict these things as a hell of a lot can change. But I still believe Sinwar and Hamas will fail to achieve their propaganda aims in the long run.

Palestinians, Israelis, the whole Middle East and the West will all benefit from the defeat of Hamas in every way possible.

So I say as I have before: Free Palestine & Israel from Hamas!

Ideologies can be discredited and military capabilities can be seriously degraded which is what will create space for a peace process to make significant progress.

Despite widespread public perceptions, especially in the Western world, this is ultimately how successful peace processes are concluded. IMO, the concept of constructive ambiguity won't work in the Middle East and is massively inappropriate to pursue in any event.

Absolutely.

Many thanks for posting that excellent article on page 31, @MissConductUS!

Recommended reading for everyone, but especially Westerners who don't really understand what's going on.

I also take the view that the Biden Administration in the United States has been slow to be proactive in public against Hamas. Especially since they've got one eye on the upcoming US election - a small advantage for terrorist groups, especially in a country where an outgoing Administration has a different view & policies to an incoming Administration. That creates an incoherent response that also enables the enemy to exploit US citizens via emotive propaganda.

Especially young people.

This section is interesting:

"As Israel’s army quickly dismantled Hamas’s military structures, the group’s political leadership began meeting other Palestinian factions in early December to discuss reconciliation and a postwar plan. Sinwar wasn’t consulted.
Sinwar in a message sent to the political leaders blasted the end-around as “shameful and outrageous.”

“As long as fighters are still standing and we have not lost the war, such contacts should be immediately terminated,” he said. “We have the capabilities to continue fighting for months.”"

Another indication of internal division not just amongst Hamas, but between them and other Palestinian factions including the Palestinian Authority amongst others presumably including Lion's Den, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, etc.

Hope yet for Israeli PsyOps efforts to work and become more effective long term!

I actually wonder whether the broadcasting of the pogrom was intentional. It's meant they've not been able to disavow the atrocities once it became inconvenient.

Oh absolutely, but that would always have happened anyway. The existence of the footage has meant that people know it happened. If that footage didn't exist, I think we'd see less of the stuff about Israel planning it etc, because people who believe that would instead deny anything happened.

She literally said it was very sad and tragic that civilians were caught up in it and killed.

Who said that Palestinian lives do not matter @ConnieCounter and @Dulra ?

Of course they do.

But this thread is about the rescue of the hostages and we still do not have a breakdown of fatalities eg fighters/terrorists/civilians.

What we do know is that the IDF performed a miracle to get them out.

Oh she did didn't she but made sure to clarify that some were
Hamas terrorists or
Civilians engaging in hostilities

And as for those uninvolved civilians?

Well that's
Very sad and tragic. Unfortunately, the reality of warfare is civilians always die.
We'll remind the parents of the 60 or so children killed of that

Don’t be ridiculous. This is a discussion forum.

It is sad and tragic, and it is true that "Unfortunately, the reality of warfare is civilians always die." It is a terrible thing for the parents.

Had Hamas let the IDF act unimpeded then there would have been no loss of any lives. Where is the recognition of this? Why did Hamas open fire?

Let's put pressure on Hamas.

Should she not have mentioned the combatants being killed, then?

I think it was unnecessary when the poster specifically referenced women and children.

Most them died when the camp was bombed to create a distraction to their escape

She listed the total number of dead and said 'many of whom were women and children', which is acknowledgement that the dead include people who were neither. The post is equally about both, so your objection there is rather thin.

It always comes back to ‘oh you support genocide then’ when the Hamas narrative is challenged.

I see you've already had a post that was deleted and, from the context of replies above, it was directed at me.

Clearly, you broke the forum rules by resorting to personal attacks. Perhaps you should reflect on the posts you're making here.

It's really not a good look to try misrepresenting what someone said.

Pretty sure the poster wouldn't be lamenting the death of Hamas fighters, it was clear who the post was about

Clearly, you broke the forum rules

Clearly, I've been put back in my box don't worry.

Thankfully, I never even saw your post. Good result all round, I'd say! 👌

Spot on!

That's otherwise known as the Non-sequitur Fallacy aka It Doesn't Follow. 👍