Rafah bombings (Edited by Mumsnet)

[TwilightSkies]

Where the hell are all the Palestinians meant to go now?
They were TOLD to go to Rafah, that Rafah was a safe place.
It’s just open extermination at this point.

It really isn’t. Lets wait for the ICJ ruling on this, no idea how you can be so sure on this. You must be party to all the legal documents and evidence that has been presented to the ICC?

Israel has committed many wrongs but ultimately, they are a part of the international community and rely on them, as well as being a democratic nation (although it isn’t a perfect democracy).
It is irrelevant what community they are part of no idea what it has to do with anything, they definitely do not behave the same way as the countries they claim to align themselves to.

It isn’t genocide according to most people’s understanding of the word. Israel is in no way trying to eliminate the Palestinian identity or people
Most peoples understanding of the word is wrong then, the legal definition of genocide is broader than "eliminate the Palestinian identity or people"

Israel is neither the UK fighting the Nazis (the favoured pro Israel analogy) but nor is Hamas the ANC and Israel white apartheid South Africa (the favoured pro Palestinian analogy that I have heard). Believing either of those just leads to simplistic conclusions and totally misunderstands the plight on both sides of the conflict.
Where has anyone said they are? The Israeli government will be judged by their actions not by anyone's "simplistic" conclusions,. Your language "simplistic, ticktoc sheep, dimwits" is trying to discredit people but you are failing to acknowledge the countries and organsiations that view the conflict in the same way as many of the posters on here.

Israeli offensive on Rafah would break international law, UK minister says

Andrew Mitchell says military action on city will not eradicate Hamas and priority is to secure a permanent ceasefire

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/07/israeli-offensive-on-rafah-would-break-international-law-uk-minister-says

@Dulra ,

‘Lets wait for the ICJ ruling on this, no idea how you can be so sure on this. You must be party to all the legal documents and evidence that has been presented to the ICC?’

Yes, let’s wait, you too are assuming the conclusion.

‘It is irrelevant what community they are part of no idea what it has to do with anything, they definitely do not behave the same way as the countries they claim to align themselves to.’

It is more relevant than you realise. Countries which trade with other civilised countries and share education etc etc have a lot to lose by going against the ethics of this countries. It was ultimately this lack of acceptance that ended Apartheid (amongst other things).

‘Most peoples understanding of the word is wrong then, the legal definition of genocide is broader than "eliminate the Palestinian identity or people"’

Yes, I know the definition has been widened, which IMO devalues the term. Now we need a new word for what genocide used to be. In any event, the ICC has NOT declared it a genocide and, until they do, it is you making assumptions, not me.

‘Where has anyone said they are? The Israeli government will be judged by their actions not by anyone's "simplistic" conclusions,. Your language "simplistic, ticktoc sheep, dimwits" is trying to discredit people but you are failing to acknowledge the countries and organsiations that view the conflict in the same way as many of the posters on here.’

If you want to accuse a poster of something, try to actually remember what they said! I have never mentioned TikTok or accused anyone of being a dimwit. I prefer civilised discussion. (Please feel welcome to check. I don’t namechange and all my posts are searchable.

@Dulra so if as you suggest, people should wait for a further ICJ ruling on this, I would suggest that the word “genocide” is not used of this conflict in the meantime. As it is so emotive, (and adopting this usage is also suggesting that you know more than the ICJ currently does)

and it is also liable to derail the thread.

It is perfectly possible to discuss what is happening without using this controversial term,I would suggest.

Is it only terms which are offensive to Jewish people that you would like to see banned? Or can we also start a list for those who are offended by terms used to refer to Palestinians?

These are some terms I personally find offensive…

• ‘collateral damage’
• ‘yes it’s sad but this is what happens in war’
• ‘neutralised’
• ‘terrorists’ (when liberally applied without evidence to justify deaths)

May I add:

• Islamists
• Arabs
• Why can't Egypt, Jordan just take the Palestinians.

Al-Najjar hospital confirmed to be no longer functioning

''The majority of residential homes and farmland have been cleared, as well as the central part of Rafah city, including the vicinity of al-Najjar Hospital, which is the only large health facility in Rafah city. That facility, which has been ordered to evacuate, is not operational at all, putting more pressure on the city’s remaining health facilities.

There are reports of more casualties being taken to field hospitals in the western part of the city, including the Kuwaiti Hospital, a small health facility that is largely unprepared and unequipped to receive a large number of casualties.''

That's fine we can use the term war crimes instead and the longer ruling by the ICJ:
ICJ ordered Israel to take specific provisional measures to prevent the crime of genocide against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip - they have not taken any of the provisional measures to prevent the crime of genocide

Well if that's the case that's a death sentence for 200 dialysis patients at the hospital.

I fail to see how attacking hospitals achieves Israels stated goals.

'Human shields'. Never before this have I heard people dismiss people being killed because they are 'human shields'. I can't imagine the same people would have been shrugging if the police blew up the Bataclan the night of the terrorist attack there rather than raiding and just killing the actual terrorists because everyone else were just 'human shields'. Yet it is constantly used as an excuse for mass killings in Gaza, what else could they do but kill everyone in ICU they were human shields 🤷🏻‍♀️

There were photos of al-Najjar on twitter yesterday of the hospital empty but still intact - but who knows what the situation is today

Interesting article, showing how most western countries are horrified by what Israel is doing. Hopefully they'll take action in the next few days. The US seems to be preventing this at the moment with their request that nobody says anything that might upset the sensitive Israelis. While they invade a city where 1.7million people are sheltering 🙄

If you want to accuse a poster of something, try to actually remember what they said! I have never mentioned TikTok or accused anyone of being a dimwit. I prefer civilised discussion. (Please feel welcome to check. I don’t namechange and all my posts are searchable.
Apologies I read the thread without my glasses and thought it was the same poster, the usernames are slightly similar

Yes, let’s wait, you too are assuming the conclusion.
I am not assuming conclusions I understand the ruling that there is a case for Israel to answer and this could take years but there is concern that genocide is plausible. Whereas you are dismissing it in its entirety

Yes, I know the definition has been widened, which IMO devalues the term.
Which is your opinion but the current legal definition will rule whether it is genocide or not, not your opinion

It is more relevant than you realise. Countries which trade with other civilised countries and share education etc etc have a lot to lose by going against the ethics of this countries. It was ultimately this lack of acceptance that ended Apartheid (amongst other things).
I am not sure what your point is here? Countries trading with Israel is not a get out of jail card if you are found guilty of war crimes or genocide. I would also like to know what your definition of a civilised and uncivilised country is?

I genuinely do not understand your question. Are you saying that the Holocaust survivors are enable to think clearly because of their past trauma?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/07/israel-must-destroy-hamas-in-rafah-defying-weak-west/

Hamas’s agreement on Monday to a ceasefire deal that was never on the table was yet another ruse to buy time and build international pressure to halt a major IDF operation in Rafah. It was a sign of the terrorists’ desperation to prevent the destruction of their final stronghold. An IDF move into Rafah has been delayed far too long. It is the result of months of fruitless negotiations over release of hostages that never showed any sign of materialising. Yet Israel had little option than to play along while even the smallest glimmer of hope existed.
The delay was also brought about by unbearable pressure from the US and other Israeli allies, with Biden repeatedly forbidding an attack on Rafah without what he called a “credible and executable plan” to protect or evacuate the civilian population there. Similar demands were recently parroted by Lord Cameron during a visit to Jerusalem. No plan the IDF drew up ever met Biden’s stipulations, but then no plan could have done so if his real intention was to block the final destruction of Hamas amid growing concerns about adverse effects on his own electoral prospects. Of course one credible plan would have been to allow civilians to take temporary refuge through the Egyptian border into Sinai. Biden could have brought that about by pushing Cairo to agree but neither he nor any other international leader ever even raised a finger to do so. That unforgivable failure, which played right into Hamas’s hands, has contributed to many of the civilian deaths during this war and will likely lead to many more.
Now the IDF has been making preliminary moves against Rafah on the ground and from the air. Quite rightly, Jerusalem has not signalled its immediate intentions. Those may be to shape the battlefield for future large-scale operations, including spurring the civilian population to evacuate Rafah to designated humanitarian zones and adding pressure on Hamas to free the hostages. Nor is it impossible that an apparently inevitable push into Rafah might impel elements of the Hamas leadership to make good their escape from Gaza while they still can. After all, they have witnessed the collapse of every one of their formed fighting units as the IDF advanced through the rest of Gaza. Whether this turns out to be a limited operation or something more sustained, Israel is going to have to deal with Hamas by an offensive in Rafah if it is to achieve its goal of dismantling the terrorist threat to its citizens. One thing we can be sure of is that the US and other Western countries will continue to browbeat Israel not to do so and instead to end the war.
These countries will be pushed further into acting against Israel by two separate phenomena. First, Iran will try to protect its proxies in Gaza by again stepping up aggression from its militant networks in the region. That in turn will raise renewed trepidation in our capitals about escalation and wider conflict. Second, expect demonstrations on university campuses and in the streets to intensify even further. The impact of Gaza-related agitation on some recent local elections in Britain will be fresh in the minds of our politicians. Rishi Sunak says he’s “deeply concerned” about the prospects of a military incursion into Rafah and according to Keir Starmer it “must not go ahead”.
Biden’s trepidation over widespread protests in an election year is only too clear. As the IDF moved against Rafah yesterday, the Biden administration continued its public opposition to Israel’s very objectives in Gaza, with White House spokesman John Kirby saying: “You’re not going to eliminate an ideology through military operations”. This tired mantra is a false argument against pretty much any military solution to any aggressor. Why did the US fight against Isis, which represents the same ideology as Hamas? Why is Ukraine bothering to resist the military manifestation of Putin’s ideology?
It shouldn’t need saying that it is absolutely vital for Israel to eliminate Hamas’s capability to continue translating its twisted ideology into physical violence. That means their physical destruction in Rafah. Israel must push on with its plans and not buckle to international pressure, no matter how great. Failure to do so would amount to nothing less than strategic defeat.

Excuses for murder. That's all that article is. Excuse Excuse Excuse.

I'd expect nothing less from the Torygraph.

@Efacsen the indonesian field hospital in Rafah have started discharging any patients who can walk in fear that they will be asked to evacuate next
They have said the consequences will be devastating

@Parkingt111 IDK what to say - there's also a team of Kuwaiti doctors being forcibly evacuated from Rafah ?don't know which hospital they are from

What has this to do with 'arms smuggling' thro' the Rafah crossing??

Hyperbolic nonsense. The writer of that article is well qualified to give his opinion. Much more than you.

Look up the writer of that article and say you know better than him.

Hyperbolic nonsense. The writer of that article is well qualified to give his opinion. Much more than you.

Look up the writer of that article and say you know better than him.

This place is weird sometimes.
That poor reporter, what has she ever done to upset @LargeAmericano ?

Kerem Shalom crossing has been 'open' for 7 hours now

But still no aid has passed into Gaza as yet UNWRA

It's like dealing with an oppositional child

I don't read that Tory rag. Fair play to you if you're a fan of the writers.

The Telegraph is so wrong.
Hamas accepted a ceasefire offer written by Israel and when they did so, they suggested a few amendments. That’s the reality reported in both Israeli and Qatari news outlets. It is only US and U.K. news that has been misreporting it as a “Hamas offer”