How have we come to a state where the police confront someone for being overtly Jewish?

[mids2019]

Just how?

I think at best this inept policing at worst vile anti semitism.

I suppose it is now in the open that central London has become effectively a no go area for Jews given the potential for abuse from hate marchers.

Can't we just stop these marches so Jews can go about their business?

I didn’t mean it that way and you know it. I meant I don’t agree with her if that is what she means.

I am asking you to engage with the middle ground, the people who do go on the marches but who are clearly not anti-semitic. Like me.

@Senzadubbidobbi The issue I have here is that there is no way to show support for Gaza without being labelled as anti-Semitic. There’s no way to criticise Zionism and its current actions without being told that we want to wipe Israel off the map.

Yet I can’t even do that without being labelled as anti-semitic. It really is so depressing.

So when the same poster refers to the Zionist movement - of which a majority of British Jews supports and is therefore part of - as being worse than Hitler "because at least he was honest and transparent", would you not agree that's antisemitic?

Jews have been calling elements of the protests antisemitic, specific behaviours - e.g. protestors chanting support for the Houthis. They're not calling you antisemitic for just protesting so stop putting words in our mouths. I'm not saying none have, but the majority simply do not. I'm begging you to please stop doing this. You say it's depressing you can't protest without being called antisemitic (which you're not). I can't even begin to tell you how depressing and scary it is being Jewish facing all this hostility and hate.

The fact is, many of these same British Jews who are supportive of Zionism are appalled by and despise the Israeli government and want the war to end (many, like me, didn't even want it to start!). The more hatred we face, the more we believe in the need for Israel and a Jewish state, and therefore Zionism, so really you can't have it both ways.

So when the same poster refers to the Zionist movement - of which a majority of British Jews supports
@Hélène79
What does supporting the Zionist movement in 2024 mean and look like? If the majority of British Jews support it I am genuinely interested to understand what it is they are supporting. I understand Zionism was about creating a national homeland for Jewish people, which is Israel, what else comes under it?
Sorry if this is s derail just want to understand it

Right, so when you were confidently telling me that she had explained herself perfectly well and I shouldn’t be asking questions, you also didn’t know what she meant. Thanks for that intervention.

I don’t think a Jewish state and a Jewish ethno-state are the same thing. Some seem to be conflating the two.

Yes you’re right. To say that about the Nazis was hyperbolic and not correct at all. I am sorry she said it and I’m sorry you feel unsafe.

Thanks for recognising that I am not anti-semitic. I will continue with the marches because I’m happy that the vast majority are, like me, simply pro-Palestinian and not anti-semitic.

If I hear anything anti-semitic I will call it out. Or leave.

Now why don’t you tell me how you think things could improve. As you don’t support Netanyahu yourself?

This.

You’re right. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt because I am tired of people honing in on the outliers and implying that all people think like that.

Thanks for answering my question. So in your opinion what is the difference between a Jewish state and a Jewish ethno state? And which is preferable to you?

Can I remind posters, when they mention the holocaust, there were NOT six million people killed in the camps. There were 12 million people killed in the camps. Six million were Jewish, six million were from a list of other groups including gypsies, gays, non whites and others. These people never ever get counted. In all the multiple threads on the Gaza war, the holocaust and its 'six million' murdered, have been mentioned multiple times. Only one other time have I seen the other six million mentioned, and that was by me as well. I have met loads of fully grown adults in my time who had no idea these other people were also targeted because they are almost never mentioned. This isn't to diminish what happened to Jewish people, they made up a whole 50% of the victims. Please, if you mention the holocaust in future, please also mention the other six million victims though because so many people have absolutely no idea they even existed.

If that's what she means? it's what she said!

@Dulra For me it's psychological and means having a Jewish homeland to 'flee' to if become so intolerable and unsafe here. We're an absolutely tiny group, we don't have safety in numbers. That's it really and I think, put simply, it's based on a guttural fear - we're decent people and being recast into monsters just because we believe in this. Jews are generally horrified by the ultra-right and version of modern political Zionism that turfs folks out their own homes and often violently so.

Thanks for engaging. So, part of the need for a homeland is because you need somewhere to flee to and are tiny in numbers. I understand that 100% given the past. And once again I don’t want you to feel unsafe.

The question is how to do that without trampling on the rights of the people living there? What do you think Netanyahu should do differently?

@Senzadubbidobbi I am pleased that you’ve picked up on this. Some posters have been doing this for months, taking comments out of context and framing them in a way which fits their narrative. They then use it as evidence to backup their point. It’s dishonest, unkind, divisive and ineffective.

What have I taken out of context exactly?

If you have something to say about me how about you do it directly to me.

It's unfortunate that you can't accept my answer because you don't like it, but how about we agree to disagree.
You seem to ask a lot of questions without responding to any that are put to you.

What is the difference between those 2? Because that's the issue.

You haven't really answered anything.

Yes yes I know, you don't answer to Zionists because we're worse than Hitler etc.

But I’m willing to talk to anyone! And I don’t believe the H thing. So talk to me!

What do you want to happen? How do you think Netanyahu should have acted? and how do you think Israelis and Palestinians can both achieve equal peace and dignity?
And what do you think should have happened in 1947?

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/josef-mengele

Imo the jewish people bore the brunt of the nazi hatred. There are those that want to turn this into a numbers game, I won't go there.

I'd like to see a two-state solution but I'm not sure how that could happen or even if it's possible. Funnily enough I don't have the magical answer for peace. Although unlike the poster I was responding to at least I want peace.

Netanyahu shouldn't have gone as far as he has, but everything he does seems to be for his own personal and political gain. In 1947 the Jewish people needed their own state and they got it.

Is the interrogation over? If you want more detailed answers I recommend you speak to a diplomat or historian or someone who knows what they're talking about. Doubt you'll find that on mumsnet.

That's not the only reason. It appears you believe you have the right to ask the questions but then don't have to answer any that are put to you without becoming arrogant. You've demonstrated this with your response to Senzadubbidobbi.

At least I've provided responses regardless of whether you like them. You've consistently ignored questions.

Please don’t be defensive. It’s not an interrogation. I’m genuinely interested in what you believe because as I said earlier, we both want the same.

You’re right. There is no magical answer.

The situation post war was horrific and the number of Jewish refugees was a problem. They needed a safe place.

My issue is that the Zionist project advertised “Come to Palestine!” “A land without a people for a people without a land”. And that just wasn’t true. Because there were people on the land already. And those people were displaced by the new state.

One has to keep that truth for the basis for any negotiation.

What questions have you asked me that I ignored? I must have missed them.

Still not sure what no peace for Israel is supposed to look like.

I find the whole it's a foreign war what can we do, why are people protesting at the British government what can they do really disingenuous unless they have slept through the past through years of the Russia Ukraine war. Why can't they sanction Israel as they have Russia? Why can't they treat the discovery of mass graves in Gaza the same as the discovery of mass graves in Ukraine? A country where the government went over and slapped the back of the Netanyahu and said 'we hope you win' is remaining very silent about the fact that they are starving millions of people, that they have made almost half of the civillian population homeless, that they have killed over 400 medics and rendered the healthcare system useless, that they have killed more aid workers than in any other conflict, that they have destroyed every single university and on and on it goes.

They could start by very clearly stating what we can all see, that what Israel are doing is very wrong and that they don't support them. Instead there is this weird gaslighting happening where people are watching people waving white flags being shot in the head, where they are watching the excavation of mass graves, they are watching aid workers being targeted, they are hearing stories like Hinds and the British government are saying nope, no evidence of war crimes at all 🙈

They are well able to condemn Russia, well able to sanction Russia, well able to charge Russia with war crimes, well able to stop selling weapons to Russia, well able to call out Russias bullshit so they are well able to do the same with Israel. Start there and I guarantee there would be less protests.

This is precisely the problem, the double standards. There is very clear evidence of war crimes happening, the mass graves, the targeting of civilians such as Hind Rajab and yet our politicians refuse to condemn it in the same way they would Russia. Or indeed the same way they rightfully do to Hamas’ crimes.

No killing of civilians should be justified.

This post is erroneous.

In terms of the others, you failed to mention that over 5 million of the others were Soviet prisoners of war and Non-_Jewish Poles.
The " gays" numbered in their hundreds, possibly thousands, Gypsies - 250,000 approx.

So your post is very misleading and it completely diminishes the horrific total of over 6 million Jewish people slaughtered by the Nazis, their allies and collaborators - just for their religion. It's an unbelievable and frankly horrifying and terrifying statistic.

Whoever would have guessed that calling yourself "namechangedforconfusion" was a sign of bad faith? <heavy sarcasm>