How have we come to a state where the police confront someone for being overtly Jewish?

[mids2019]

Just how?

I think at best this inept policing at worst vile anti semitism.

I suppose it is now in the open that central London has become effectively a no go area for Jews given the potential for abuse from hate marchers.

Can't we just stop these marches so Jews can go about their business?

How very sad all this is. A bit of insomnia. Just reading through all the latest posts, and all the disagreement here is so sad.
How I wish none of this was happening. How desperately I wish October 7th hadn't happened. How desperately I wish the Israeli government was more moderate. How I wish humans were less tribal, and we could all just forgive eachother, draw a line under it, and love eachother.
I wonder if aliens suddenly invaded Earth, then human beings would realise we're all family, and stop hating and hurting eachother?
Anyway, I probably haven't added anything to this thread now. But that's my insomnia-fuelled philosophical interjection, for what it's worth 😔

You’re right. It is so sad. At the end of the day I’m sure no one here wants innocent people to die, nor do they want anyone to be displaced from their homes. I’m sure we care as much for the Israeli hostages as we do for the children in Israeli jails.

The problem is we all disagree on who is to blame for the current situation and how lasting peace can be achieved.
But I’m sure we want the same peace for everyone.

The issue I have here is that there is no way to show support for Gaza without being labelled as anti-Semitic. There’s no way to criticise Zionism and its current actions without being told that we want to wipe Israel off the map.

It’s so tiring to be told that one is a covert anti-Semite because one is opposed to the slaughter in Gaza or the destruction of Palestinian homes in the West Bank.

It’s to tiring to be told that you are full of hate when really you are full of love. The children in Gaza who are on the brink of starvation could be our children. The children who are sent off to war could be our children.

And the only way I can protest this slaughter is to march. There is no way to vote because both sides are the same. There is nothing to be done because the US is so powerful. Literally the only thing I can do is march. Yet I can’t even do that without being labelled as anti-semitic. It really is so depressing.

The whole world is calling for an immediate ceasefire bar the usual suspects. It’s hardly controversial to be utterly disgusted by the actions of the Israeli state and I certainly make no apologies for feeling that way.

This isn’t a political issue that people politely disagree on. It’s genocide and happening right in front of all of us.

The problem I feel with the marches is who is is the protest aimed at? Who is listening? Hamas? The IDF? In reality this is a foreign war and I can go some extent understand protest if the UK was directly involved as we have a democratic stake in the actions of this state. If the media start to lose interest then even the public at large will not see the protests.

The only side result of the marches is that those anti Semitic elements in the marches (I agree there may be those who genuinely want peace) get what they want or all they can achieve, a country more uncomfortable for Jews. There won't be a bullet less tired in this war because of these marches but there will be those in the Jewsih community that are afraid seeing such visceral hate against the Israeli state and by extension it's people and religion. Yes there is hate as being openly Jewish does seem to be a provocation and we need to hang out heads in shame because of this.

We have seen wide spread arrests in the US where protest gets out of hand and we do not want to see this here.

There is a hostage and temporary ceasefire deal on the table that Israel’s agreed to. While it isn’t the full ceasefire Hamas wants, it’s a step forward that would see aid and medical relief into Gaza and a release of hostages.
Guess who’s turning it down? That’s right, Hamas, who would prefer innocent Gazans to suffer and die for their ‘cause’.

It’s so tiring to be told that one is a covert anti-Semite because one is opposed to the slaughter in Gaza or the destruction of Palestinian homes in the West Bank.

Yes, that's very true. I have to be honest and say that it stops me posting on here sometimes. I know for an absolute fact that I'm not an anti-semite. I know myself, and know it wouldn't even occur to me. I actually feel incredibly sorry for most ordinary Jewish people in Britain and elsewhere at the moment, as it must be exhausting knowing people are wondering what you think about Israel, even if you've never been there. But I certainly think the way Israel is behaving at the moment is reprehensible. Unbelievable really that it's being allowed.
I do think you're a little bit damned if you do and damned if you don't on this board.
Criticise Israel and risk being accused of anti-Semitism.
Say how utterly awful you think October 7th was, and risk being accused of not caring about Palestinians.
I (and I presume most) care about both. Think both things are terrible. But, there are definitely posters on both sides waiting to pounce and accuse. So, I don't post often. Haven't the energy honestly for the comeback.

But I’m sure we want the same peace for everyone.

The issue I have here is that there is no way to show support for Gaza without being labelled as anti-Semitic. There’s no way to criticise Zionism and its current actions without being told that we want to wipe Israel off the map.

That poster literally said that they didn't want peace for Israel. Neither do Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis or Iran, who do want to see Israel wiped off the map.

What do you think 'no peace for Israel' looks like?

The problem I feel with the marches is who is is the protest aimed at? Who is listening? Hamas? The IDF? In reality this is a foreign war and I can go some extent understand protest if the UK was directly involved as we have a democratic stake in the actions of this state.

I can tell you without doubt who the marches are aimed at - our government.

You see, there is no way for us to directly influence either Hamas or the IDF because we have no control over them.

We do have a very small sliver of control over our government who need to be popular in order to stay in power. You say that the UK aren’t directly involved? They ARE!

They supply arms to Israel. They vote at international courts which put pressure on Israel (and have until only recently voted pro-Israel) They cut funds to UNRWA, the major supplier of aid to Palestinians.

Aside from the fact they are morally responsible in the past because of the Balfour declaration, there is so much they could do today.

It all goes towards adding political pressure and it works. That’s the point of protest.

This is the kind of gotcha-ism that another poster is talking about! The poster you’re talking about has made it clear that she believes Jews, Muslims and Christians can live peacefully outside of an ethno-state, yet you hone in on one sentence, take it out of context (she was talking of the evolution in her thought process) and ignore everything or everyone else.

If she is anti-semitic rather than anti-Zionist then I apologise on her behalf, but I am not and lots of other protesters aren’t. So engage with us!

She hasn't yet clarified what she wants to happen to Israel. I've seen other people talking about Jews, Muslims and Christians living peacefully together 'like they did before' and they meant before the creation of Israel and they definitely meant a single state solution where Israel, the world's only Jewish state, doesn't exist anymore.

Saying you don't want peace for Israel isn't something that raises your eyebrow?

I haven’t seen the details of the deal so I will have to look at it up and get back to you but just for a moment think about your framing.

We always hear “Israel offered a peace deal and Hamas/PLO rejected it. They are not interested in peace” but it ignores that in every negotiations there are two opposing sets of demands. The Palestinian side will have offered their own peace deal which would have been rejected by Israel. But we never hear “Israel rejects Hamas’ peace deal”.

As for saying Hamas would prefer Gazans to die for their “cause” you can say the same thing about Netanyahu who rejected the previous offer made by Hamas to release the hostages because it involved Israel stopping their ground offensive in Gaza. Do you say “Netanyahu prefers to see innocent Israelis die for his “cause””? No you don’t.

I’m not asking you to be pro-Hamas by any means. What I’m asking you to do is to be logically consistent when you judge both sides.

@noblegiraffe How do you think peace in the region can be achieved? What would need to happen do you think?

This is what she clarified when you pressed her on it:

Jewish and Palestinian Muslims and Christian's have lived there in harmony before. I believe they can again. Just not with a zionist government.

So she did clarify.

There are a couple of informative articles in the Guardian this morning which discuss the Campaign Against Antisemitism (CAA), who Gideon Falter is the head of, and the political nature of their work.

The Community Security Trust takes a more balanced and sensible statement.

Also, the CAA have blocked the governments antisemitism tsar on X!

‘John Mann, the government’s antisemitism tsar, said Falter had been “quite explicit” about his intentions at the protest. “There’s no ambiguity in what he’s doing,” he told the BBC, saying he had been blocked by the CAA on the social media platform X and they were “not playing it straight”.
CST, the main body that monitors antisemitism, said that while it condemned the language used by the police, it had confidence in the Met to protect Jewish Londoners.’

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/apr/26/who-is-the-caa-gideon-falter-met-police-openly-jewish-antisemitism-row

There were serious concerns about Suella Braverman wanting to offer Gideon Falter a role as an adviser to its counter extremism unit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/26/home-office-considered-antisemitism-campaigner-for-counter-extremism-unit

@AccountCreateUsername

"It all goes towards adding political pressure and it works. That’s the point of protest."

But pressure on who, the UK Government? In which case are Hamas or the IDF equally going to listen to or care about the UK Govt?

And at what cost? Do you really think that a further divided UK society, a rise in anti semitism, a rise in Islamophobia, a rise in racism, disruption to our cities is a price worth paying in order to pressure the UK Govt on something that they have minimal influence on.

Unless there are reasons for these protests other than bringing pressure on the UK Govt.

Do you think she means a Jewish state or not?

Your right.

The levels of anti semitism posts, Israel should just leave tge area, they are like Hitler, etc. Vile towards Jewish people. With hundreds of threads on here the few that are talking about problems that Jewish people have in the UK attrack vile anti semitism.

The problem I feel with the marches is who is is the protest aimed at? Who is listening? Hamas? The IDF?
They are aimed at the British government. Have you read your own thread this has been discussed and explained numerous times. This is important to remember because there are many other countries where their governments do not support Israel's current actions in Gaza and those countries do not have these marches because their citizens are happy with their governments position on the conflict.
In reality this is a foreign war
When the UK government supports one side and is selling arms to one side which are carrying out atrocities on innocent civilians it is not a foreign war. The UK government also believed that side when they discredited UNWRA and ceased funding them and still do even though the evidence is not there. The British governments own lawyers have warned them about being complicit in war crimes.
The only side result of the marches is that those anti Semitic elements in the marches (I agree there may be those who genuinely want peace)
I would flip that sentence and suggest that the majority of marches genuinely want peace (why else would they be marching!) and would agree that a small minority are anti-Semitic.

It is encouraging to read the article posted by PeasfullPerson that the CST the main body that monitors antisemitism, has confidence in the Met to protect Jewish Londoners

I don’t know but it does seem to imply that she would rather a multi-faith state.

Let’s wait for her to come back shall we?

In the meantime why don’t you tell us what you think? So we can find some common ground. I get the feeling that you equate the belief in an ethno-state for Jews as a baseline for Jewish security? Is that right?

Your questions have been answered three times now. What do you think of the answers given?

How would Police react to a Muslim women wearing a Hijab in the middle of a pro Israel March. Would they be viewed as being deliberately inflammatory or just 'crossing the road'. What would make them stand out in an angry mob as Muslim.

How nice of you to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who comes on here in the middle of the night with a fresh username to rant about how they don't have to answer to Zionists who BTW are worse than Hitler, how Israel shouldn't have peace and Jews stole people's homes. I'm sure you'd extend that courtesy to anyone saying similar things about Palestinians.

Whilst we discuss this, this is happening https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68780112

That poor mother, her son in jail, to hear his voice for the last time.

We need international law to step in. To turn a blind eye is to make a mockery of the conventions made after the wars that were designed to stop this kind of thing happening again.