How have we come to a state where the police confront someone for being overtly Jewish?

[mids2019]

Just how?

I think at best this inept policing at worst vile anti semitism.

I suppose it is now in the open that central London has become effectively a no go area for Jews given the potential for abuse from hate marchers.

Can't we just stop these marches so Jews can go about their business?

@ByGreyOP

What do you want to happen to the Palestinian people?

What's the difference between a Jewish state and Jewish ethno state?

Wait, I'm confused. Are these the questions you accused me of arrogantly ignoring? If so can you please point out where you asked them?

@ByGreyOP no these are questions I'm asking you now.

If it's a level playing field we should be able to engage in healthy conversations right?

But you appear to believe you have all the rights to ask questions and don't have to respond to them civilly and when you do it's with arrogance as you have demonstrated.

You're proving my point with your post.

You've said you want peace for both sides . So What would you like to happen to the Palestinian people?

But you accused me of ignoring your questions before you asked me any. You're insulting me for not answering questions that were never asked. How is that a civil conversation? For that matter how is "I don't answer to Zionists" a civil conversation?

Anyway, as I said I'd like to see a two state solution, in an ideal world. As for the difference between a Jewish state and Jewish ethno state, I don't know.

My turn. What would you like to happen to the Israeli people?

Thank you for posting those links.
I absolutely and completely agree with you that Jewish people bore the brunt of Nazi hatred. I also 100% think that the Palestinian people are baring the brunt of this conflict, by a long way. The Israeli hostages and wider population shouldn't be forgotten or overlooked in it all because of that though.

@ByGreyOP I don't want anything to happen to the Israeli people . I believe they can co-exist peacefully.

I think this is the 3rd time I've mentioned this but for some reason it's not an acceptable response

They ARE coexisting peacefully. There are minorities in Israel who hold full citizenship, most conspicuously Arab/Palestinian.

And surely (I don't know the answer) the obvious meaning of "ethno-state versus state " could be the correct one? An ethno-state being a country of just one ethnicity, which Israel isn't.

@LiterallyOnFire

You are either in complete and utter denial or ignorant.

They are NOT coexisting peacefully.

One group has rights, the others don't

One group has a right of return, the others don't

Until they all have equal rights , there won't be peacefully coexistence.

You are deliberately provoking it's a tactic you keep using , because you cannot be this dense.

Angry mobs are a bad thing, regardless of their religion. The police should do something about the angry mobs.

That⬆️ made me think of this ⬇️.

Anshel Pfeffer put it well in a piece for Haaretz. The ‘de-Judaisation and universalisation of the Holocaust’ made it inevitable that it would ‘become a stick to beat up Jews themselves’, he said. Old-style Holocaust denial has become a ‘distinctly fringe belief’, says Pfeffer, but it’s been replaced by something equally problematic: the transformation of the Holocaust into a ‘historic brand’, a generalised feeling rather than a specific event. This, he says, has come at the price of ‘a hollowing-out of the Holocaust’s unique significance’. Where once racists accused the Jews of inventing the Holocaust, now the demand is that the Jews share the Holocaust. Yes, the Jews can have remembrance of their genocide, says Pfeffer, but first they must agree to ‘share it’ with other victim groups.

So the Holocaust is not denied, at least not by respectable people, but it is shared, which is to say diluted. Every time a modern event is inserted into the moral universe of the Holocaust – whether it be a horrible war, factory farming or whatever – the Holocaust itself is diminished, dismantled, rendered ordinary rather than extraordinary. We go from ‘Holocaust denial to everyone having their own preferred Holocaust’, says Anshel Pfeffer, ‘and I’m not sure what’s worse.'

The Holocaust was the name given to the targeted, systematic genocide of European Jewry between 1941 and 1945. The six million (probably more)non-Jews murdered during that event were similarly victims of Nazi mass killings and separate Nazi genocidal policies, such as that inflicted on the Roma and Sinti, but to say they were also all victims of the Holocaust is to diminish or erase its specificity.

That @Kendodd confines the Holocaust to "the camps" when a large proportion of the unremitting slaughter of Jews took place outside of the camps, including mass shootings in which over 30,000 Jews at a time were killed in one location over the course of two days, shows a fundamental lack of learning about the realities of the Holocaust and this does a disservice to all the victims, Jews and non-Jews alike, who died at the hands of the Nazis and their collaborators during their genocidal rampage.

Why would I be in denial? I have no skin on the game. Just the evidence of my eyes.

Right of return is a very specific law because of the holocaust and the pogroms.

The reason this is so hard to untangle is because the history and the rootedness in the region goes back millennia. Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis turned up in the last century and invented a claim.

What there is that's unsatisfactory is a result of a peace process never concluded, which has left some things caught in aspic. The way to iron out the problems is to go back into peace talks. For all the hawkishness of some recent Israeli governments, there has been willing to negotiate and settle at multiple points.

Now it's going to be much more difficult for a long while than at any point for decades, but that was deliberate. Hamas knew what the effect of October 7th would be. The inevitability and momentum that would result, That's why they did it. They threw both sides under the bus for their own reasons.

None of which is to suggest there shouldn't be a swift ceasefire now. But this "genocide" rhetoric just makes it less likely AFAICS.

I also think dismissing a legitimate case for genocide brought to the ICJ who has concluded there are enough grounds to make a case as "rhetoric" will also not help

So what are you saying exactly? That the other victims should not be mentioned? If that's what you want, you win anyway, because they almost never are.

Can you explain why you feel that way? Do you usually dismiss the ICJ and human rights experts as 'rhetoric' or do you like many others just make exceptions for this case?

I think for lots of people that's part of the problem, the exceptional way Israel have been treated by our Western governments. I think it is especially stark when we see how Russia have been recently treated, I've never once seen anyone describe the genocide allegations against Russia as 'rhetoric' or insist that we should ignore the UN when it comes to war crimes and genocide commited by Russia. Nor have I seen it suggested that acknowledging the crimes Russia have commited is in some way impeding peace. I presume you feel the same way about Russia though, that we should all stay quiet and not talk about what they doing?

This

@Kendodd Not at all and that's a somewhat insulting interpretation of my post. It's not a competition. I'm literally talking about the non-Jewish victims and how they were also killed in huge numbers in my post so clearly I'm not saying they shouldn't be mentioned.

Well that they should not be mentioned is definitely the impression I am getting. Not just from you, by other posters criticising my post asking that the other victims (that, I've found a great many people had no idea existed) also be mentioned.

Can you explain why you feel that way? Do you usually dismiss the ICJ and human rights experts as 'rhetoric' or do you like many others just make exceptions for this case?

The time when I blindly trusted the UN, the ICJ, the British Labour Party or even the Guardian to be coming to the right conclusions is a long way past.

It's not comfortable but sadly it's the case.

also think dismissing a legitimate case for genocide brought to the ICJ who has concluded there are enough grounds to make a case as "rhetoric" will also not help

I think considering the current conflict in isolation from the Oct 7th attacks (or vice versa) is wrongheaded and unhelpful.

Considering both in tandem, being as even handed as possible, doesn't bring any east answers, but being partisan will never solve the situation conclusively.

FWIW, I still personally think that a two state solution remains the only viable way out of this, but we are a long way from that now.

There are no easy answers.

Ok....

So to you it's just rhetoric because you don't trust the ICJ, but do you trust Israel's account of things?

As I've already told you, the impression you're getting is wrong and insulting so you can stop repeating it. I criticised your post because it mischaracterises and universalises the Holocaust, not because it mentions non-Jewish victims of the Nazis, whom I also mentioned repeatedly in my post. Maybe your Holocaust education and those of the great many people you know who also have no idea about it has been woefully insufficient, I don't know. ETA the fact that you seem to believe that all of the victims died in the camps would seem to suggest it has been.