To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

How are you so sure of this? Isreal have led the way in neighbouring countries blocking entry to Gaza for independent journalists. Why do you think your information isn’t propaganda but everyone else’s is?

Those figures are made up by Hamas. of course children have died but sadly Children die in every war. That doesn’t mean there are massacres and there are no evidence of any massacres of children by the IDF.

it’s sad that you’ve lost your way so much.

@Annettekurtin “But there have been no “massacres” of Palestinians as you claimed.”

Are you serious? October 7th is a massacre but the 33,000 deaths since is nothing?

Where is your humanity?

Why have anti-Israel groups been so prominent for so many years on university campuses and in ‘public’ meetings and at political conferences and elsewhere?

Why do anti-Israel groups outnumber those who campaign about other conflicts in the world many, many times over?

Why is there a more prominent campaign to boycott Israel than any other country?

Why is there march after march after march about Israel, something that’s never happened for any other conflict?

It’s got nothing to do with the scale or nature of events in Israel over many years, relative to every other conflict in the world. But of course it is the only one in which Jews are fighting and defending themselves as and on behalf of Jews.

You can just say Jew. We all know that’s what you mean

When I was 18 working at a hotel creche, a Zionist lady who was also an Israeli national ranted at me very aggressively because I referred to Israel as Palestine in front of her kids

Why did you do that?

Really? Cuz I see pictures of dead children every day on twitter. I guess I just imagined it though! 😂

This goes to the point of my original post.

You don't seem to grasp that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason and one reason only: the terrorist attacks, rapes and murders that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

The deaths of the aid workers and children and indeed all civilians is a desperate tragedy. But that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war and, therefore, for the fact that these atrocities are occurring.

This war, like every other war boils down to land and resources. A bunch of people who want money and power using ideology and religion to justify why the land and resources are theirs. To them the people getting killed are just collateral damage on the journey to them getting more money and power. We're already seeing arguments about who "owns" parts of the moon and we'll see it again when people settle on mars. Until we as a species learn to share what we have fairly we'll see it again and again.

Only one side are terrorists and only one side is defending terrorism. I’m not a fan of Netanyahu but he’s not a terrorist nor is the Israeli government. It’s just more antisemitism

The bombing of David's hotel is history recognised as an act of terrorism by the Irgun. They were a Zionist terrorist group. They might have been Jewish but they didn't represent the Jewish population in Jerusalem. Most Jewish condemned them. Yet that was somehow the start of what was to become the never ending combat.

‘You’re moving the goalposts in your attempt to demonize Jews’

Here we go. Criticising the actions of a government is not criticising a whole religion. There are plenty of people of Jewish faith calling for an end to this genocide.

It’s not going to work anymore- this ‘critique Israeli government = anti semitism’ too many innocent Palestinians are dead now, with no let up, and no justification. It’s being going on for too many years.

Being critical of the US involvement doesn’t make me anti-Christian, criticism of the Taliban doesn’t make me anti- Muslim.

Israel is doing it’s people a huge disservice.

Idk I was a 17 year old girl and wasn't that good at geography. I had no idea what she was even talking about until I got home and googled it later and realizsed she's a psycho.

Disgraceful.

So not really the same as the murdering raping terrorists of Hamas then.

Why do anti-Israel groups outnumber those who campaign about other conflicts in the world many, many times over?

is this true? Do you mean now or in general? I’d be interested if this is just a feeling you have or a fact.

Not all Jews are Zionists though are they?

Yes, I think that’s right. Sadly just like in the early 19th century antisemitism is trendy again.

I think people forget that when talking about the holocaust. The hate for Jews then in many parts of the world was the fashionable thing- they were the baddies who murdered kids to make Passover matzo etc (the Jew as child murder trope is not new). Same as the pro Hamas antisemites are trendy now. I hope we will look back on them the same way we look back on the pro nazi antisemites.

So trained snipers are shooting children in the head accidentally? You really believe that?
When Isreal bombs marked aid vehicles with laser focused bombs on a road that they're aware those vehicles would be on at that exact moment you believe that's accidental?🥴

The ‘historical context’ so many like to mention:

• Jews - 2000 plus years of presence in Judea (today’s Israel)
• Jews banished from Judea, roamed the Earth with no homeland to return to, settled in many parts of the world, also in Europe (see my previous comment)
• Holocaust - millions of Jews are persecuted and killed just for being Jews
• 1948 - Israel is founded - Jews allowed to go back to Judea;
• 1956 - Israel’s neighbours attack (all at once) seeking to eradicate Israel.
Israel defends itself, gradually becomes a stronghold
•1956-1991 Israel’s neighbours, supported by the USSR repeatedly attack Israel and proclaim their aim is the total destruction of Israel (see the UN Security Council’s archives for details); Palestinian terrorists are trained and armed by the USSR
•1991 - USSR collapses
•2006 - Israel withdraws troops from Gaza
•2006-present - Israel continues to provide food and water to the citizens of Gaza because their elected government (Hamas) spends foreign aid on other priorities
•2011-present - Israel’s Iron Dome repeatedly protects its citizens from air strikes by its hostile neighbours
• Golan heights were used by Syria to bomb Israel
• Tora doesn’t teach Jews to hate Muslims
• Iran and other Arab countries supported Hitler during the 2WW
• Israel is building a desalination plant Gaza's people because their own government for some reason can’t
• Hamas use civilians as shields and supply photos to the Western press

So, perhaps the context is that a nation besieged from the very start who knows that its neighbours actively want to destroy it and annihilate its people is allowed to defend itself when pushed against the wall?

Just a different angle for consideration.

P.S. Rape is not resistance. ✌️

Have you seen any weekly mass rallies for any war? Even those the uk is involved in?

Exactly

What happened on October 7 2023 was absolutely horrific

the Palestinian people have been slowly dehumanised for many many years by successive Israeli governments which is also absolutely horrific

but largely ignored by the west as they are brown and Muslim and well not really like us

"These people"?

If you referred to the country I'm from as a different country I might get a bit annoyed too.

I always find it incredibly interesting that people defend Hamas but don't defend ISIS. Despite the difference in origins (one being elected - Hamas by the Palestinian people, which tbh is a whole other issue that people like to forget - and one springing up from a bunch of lunatics) and backers, they behave in a disgustingly similar way and have the same opinions.

Both consider women to be scum (the irony that mumsnet is full of Hamas defenders is not lost on me, they both think gays should be killed, girls shouldn't get educated, that Christianity is a sin etc etc.

The ONLY difference between the two is that Hamas are more media savvy and so the idiots without two brain cells to rub together support Hamas - despite the atrocities they have committed.

Hamas knew exactly how Israel would react and yet they did what they did anyway. That makes them worse than Israel IMO.

No-one seriously believes that what Israel is doing is going to get rid of or destroy Hamas. You can only overcome organisations like that if you have the support of the government where they operate, and in the case of Hamas that would have to include surrounding countries. Obviously Israel does not have that support. What it is doing is developing a new generation with every reason to loathe Israel with all their being. Future Israeli citizens will have good cause to regret that.