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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Other people's shoes.

177 replies

sparklyrabbits · 30/03/2024 13:29

The Question of Palestine.

I am no expert in the conflict but I found this brief video from the United Nations an interesting, brief overview of what happened in 1948.

Putting aside the needs of the Jewish people after WW2, I couldn't help but put myself in the shoes of the Palestinian people. In the main, they have never received compensation for losing their homes or even an acknowledgement or apology from the international community in regards to what they lost.

I spent some time living in Egypt in the naughties and met an elderly Palestinian man who still wore the key to his home in Palestine on a chain around his neck. He is probably long gone now and I doubt he was ever able to return. I didn't know huge amounts about the conflict at the time.

I recently read the book ' Searching For Fatima' by Ghada Karmi who was a Palestinian living in Jerusalem in 1948 and the years leading up to being forced to leave her home. Her family were quite Middle Class and had a very nice life in a villa, good education etc. They lost it all and a Jewish family moved into their home. They thought leaving was temporary until things were safe again.
Putting aside anything that has happen since but moving back in a time machine to 1948, if I was in their shoes, I don't think I would ever get over this. I can't imagine becoming a refugee knowing that someone else was living in my home, sitting in my garden etc. I wouldn't care what religion they were -the hatred and anger would be real.

I have always been interested in the Holocaust and have been to several cities that had prewar Jewish communities. I have always had huge amounts of sympathy and cannot imagine how you rebuild your life after what they suffered. I have now started reading 'Friendly Fire' by Ami Ayalon who is an Israeli and ex head of the Israeli Shin Bet. I've not finished it yet but an excellent read.

His father moved to Palestine in the 1930's from Romania and lived in a Kibbutz. His father was treated like an outsider in Romania as a Jewish person and never felt like he belonged. It was interesting to hear his story and attempt to put myself in his shoes and why he felt his future was in Palestine. He speaks about the education he received at school about Israel and comments that it would skip from the history as per the Torah and then jump a couple of thousand years to heroes circa 1948.

He also writes about the dehumanisation of the Palestinians, the behaviour of the settlers and the changes that need to happen if Israel is to have a future. More importantly, he talks about the need for empathy for the Palestinians. I've not completed the book yet but would be interested if anyone else has read this book but don't want this post to go down the path of talking about current events in regards to Hamas and the IDF and atrocities.

Brief Animated History of the Question of Palestine

To read more about the history of the Question of Palestine, please visit https://www.un.org/unispal/history/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.un.org%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjMsMjg2NjMsMjg2NjQsMTY0NTAz&feature=emb_share&v=yBjMbe24Vu0

OP posts:
kasstherito · 30/03/2024 18:12

So what are you saying, that Israel shouldn't exist?

sparklyrabbits · 30/03/2024 18:33

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CaterhamReconstituted · 30/03/2024 18:34

The creation of the state of Israel involved the displacement of three quarters of a million Arabs from their homes. Many homes were left under instruction from Arab leaders who intended for people to return once they had won a war against the new and recently traumatised nation of Israel, which they expected to win, were favourites to win, and which would have meant the destruction of the Israeli state if they did.

It is understandable of course that the displacement of peoples from their homes caused immense pain, just as the Jews felt pain when they were forced to flee from their homeland after the destruction of the Temple.

Palestine was never an independent country and the Arabs rejected the partition plan the UN put forward. The borders between Israel and Palestinian Territories have never been formally defined.

The Palestinian people have been let down by their leadership over the years who have not wanted a two-state solution - Arafat famously said he did not want to be the mere “Mayor of Jericho” - and care more about Jews living on what they believe to be Islamic lands than they do about the political rights of their own people.

kasstherito · 30/03/2024 18:35

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No need to resort to patronising insults. I just asked a question.

sparklyrabbits · 30/03/2024 18:39

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blackcherryconserve · 30/03/2024 18:54

To give some context. As many Jews were made to leave their homes that they had lived in for generations in Arab countries in 1947/8. It wasn't only Palestinians who lost their homes.

blackcherryconserve · 30/03/2024 18:55

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Original poster
sparklyrabbits · 30/03/2024 19:01

blackcherryconserve · 30/03/2024 18:54

To give some context. As many Jews were made to leave their homes that they had lived in for generations in Arab countries in 1947/8. It wasn't only Palestinians who lost their homes.

Edited

i am aware of this and have been for many years.. The purpose of the post was to consider the moderate voices on both sides and understand the pain on both sides. I actually feel that in the darkness of what is currently happening, moderate voices and the voices of people like Ami Ayalon (from what I've read so far) give a glimmer for the future. Comments like the kasstheriot trying to derail the topic and take it down a negative path makes me feel sad. She know exactly what she is trying to do. She cannot bear to hear that someone can have sympathy for the Jewish people AND the Palestinians. Extreme views on either side are never going to resolve the current situation. However, I do feel that the pain that the Palestinians have experienced has never been acknowledged in the West. I think most of us are fully aware of the Holocaust, have read books, watched films etc - but how many films are out there that tell the stories of the Palestinians and their pain? I believe i social justice - for everyone.

OP posts:
sparklyrabbits · 30/03/2024 19:03

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kasstherito · 30/03/2024 19:13

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I asked you a question about what you think should happen to Isreal. You immediately resorted to throwing around personal attacks. You clearly don't want any kind of actual discussion.

kasstherito · 30/03/2024 19:14

She cannot bear to hear that someone can have sympathy for the Jewish people AND the Palestinians.

Notsure how you manages to get that from my post.

Original poster
sparklyrabbits · 30/03/2024 19:23

kasstherito · 30/03/2024 19:13

I asked you a question about what you think should happen to Isreal. You immediately resorted to throwing around personal attacks. You clearly don't want any kind of actual discussion.

Show quote history

You are correct.I do not want a discussion with you. The title was putting yourself in someone elses shoes. You jumped straight in, aggressively, wanting me to tell you if I think Israel should exist.

This isn't relevent to this topic.

I would have liked you to have 'put yourself in some elses shoes' in regards to the Palestinians. Describe to me how you would feel if you had to leave your home, never to return, for someone else to live in your home? The topic is not what Hamas did, the Arabs in 1948 etc. Just this.

Likewise, how would you feel if you were a European Jew in 1945, your family wiped out, not knowing where you belonged, feeling unsafe but Palestine feeling like a beacon of hope and a place where you could make a future?

Just literally that. How would you cope? What would you feel? But you have to consider both sides. If you can't do that you you have silently told me everything I wanted to know. How would any of us cope if we had to leave our homes and our communities never to return? Because I think if none of us can do this, to be empathetic, in 30 years time the Middle East will still be in turmoil and you kasstherito will still be asking 'But do you believe Israel has the right to exist?'

OP posts:
Nopoppinginplease · 31/03/2024 05:36

OP thank you for starting the thread, of course though it's virtually impossible to expect any form of reasoned debate when sympathising with Palestinians is asked for, or even acknowledging the immense damage that has been done to them. As per usual the "what do you want to happen to Israel?" is one of the first responses.

Muthaofcats · 31/03/2024 07:04

Stepping into the shoes of both sides of a conflict is a really sensible idea, the first step on the rocky path to resolution.

Really important to see both sides experience in order to remember their humanity.

I guess the only pause would be if you were using this as a device rather than truly being interested in resolution. I query this because you have asked the reader to step into the shoes of only one side, and whilst there’s nothing wrong on the face of it with doing that, it seems a rather arbitrary focus. Surely one has to reference the other side’s history and experience too? After all, you couldn’t find a more poignant example of persecution and displacement than Jewish people? So whilst that doesn’t detract from the necessity to consider the experience of both sides of any conflict, I just feel slightly wary about WHY this post has been written, and why such a narrow lens applied to your view point?

I am also not sure how such an emotive question helps us find a solution; given that one might feel sad for the man asked to leave his home, but before the Arab occupiers of the land, you’d have found Jews who would have been similarly displaced both from their homeland, all the way back to the romans and on and on and on. But also from their homes in other Middle Eastern and European countries where they’ve been driven out and killed to such an extent that they now form a tiny tiny minority of the population.

The issue is that the people being displaced are usually just interested in a peaceful life and love their families just the same, it’s the actions of their states that dictates a lot of what happens to them (although of course those leaders need to have been elected in the first place) so your point about empathising for them does still stand - in that of course it must be horrible for anyone being told to uproot and leave their homes.

What I am trying to say is that looking backwards at history doesn’t get us very far. Even if one did, you can’t draw an arbitrary line about when to start, do you look at when that particular home was occupied by a Palestinian? Or the century before ? Or before that?

And even if you felt the injustice of that decision of somebody’s great grandfathers , it wouldn’t justify you going into that same house and raping and abducting his grandchildren.

We have to find a way to live in peace. And to do that we have to see each other as human beings with a right to exist, whoever they are and whatever their race or religion. The difficulty with this impossible subject is that Israel and the Jewish diaspora are being explicitly told by Hamas that they do not have a right to exist and will be destroyed over and over again. We saw those videos this week of them saying how Israeli women are inhuman and all deserve to be killed.

This is a group that was voted for by Palestinians and Hamas’ actions largely celebrated by the majority of the population. By the same turn, That fact also DOES NOT justify a situation where Palestinian people are left to suffer and starve and live in fear, we are just creating the next cycle of conflict and must all abide by a basic moral code regardless of previous ‘wrongs’, especially when those wrongs aren’t committed by individuals but a state.

I guess this is my inarticulate long winded way of suggesting that what you are asking for is arguably propoganda and could be accused of emoting to generate more hatred and division. We need empathy yes, but we will not find peace if we are using that as a hollow attempt to justify the actions of one party or undermine the right to the peaceful existence of the other.

we all have the right to live in peace. The difficult question is how Israelis and Palestinians now achieve this until both parties accept that their future survival is reliant on the safety and well being of the other side.

Original poster
sparklyrabbits · 31/03/2024 09:28

Muthaofcats · 31/03/2024 07:04

Stepping into the shoes of both sides of a conflict is a really sensible idea, the first step on the rocky path to resolution.

Really important to see both sides experience in order to remember their humanity.

I guess the only pause would be if you were using this as a device rather than truly being interested in resolution. I query this because you have asked the reader to step into the shoes of only one side, and whilst there’s nothing wrong on the face of it with doing that, it seems a rather arbitrary focus. Surely one has to reference the other side’s history and experience too? After all, you couldn’t find a more poignant example of persecution and displacement than Jewish people? So whilst that doesn’t detract from the necessity to consider the experience of both sides of any conflict, I just feel slightly wary about WHY this post has been written, and why such a narrow lens applied to your view point?

I am also not sure how such an emotive question helps us find a solution; given that one might feel sad for the man asked to leave his home, but before the Arab occupiers of the land, you’d have found Jews who would have been similarly displaced both from their homeland, all the way back to the romans and on and on and on. But also from their homes in other Middle Eastern and European countries where they’ve been driven out and killed to such an extent that they now form a tiny tiny minority of the population.

The issue is that the people being displaced are usually just interested in a peaceful life and love their families just the same, it’s the actions of their states that dictates a lot of what happens to them (although of course those leaders need to have been elected in the first place) so your point about empathising for them does still stand - in that of course it must be horrible for anyone being told to uproot and leave their homes.

What I am trying to say is that looking backwards at history doesn’t get us very far. Even if one did, you can’t draw an arbitrary line about when to start, do you look at when that particular home was occupied by a Palestinian? Or the century before ? Or before that?

And even if you felt the injustice of that decision of somebody’s great grandfathers , it wouldn’t justify you going into that same house and raping and abducting his grandchildren.

We have to find a way to live in peace. And to do that we have to see each other as human beings with a right to exist, whoever they are and whatever their race or religion. The difficulty with this impossible subject is that Israel and the Jewish diaspora are being explicitly told by Hamas that they do not have a right to exist and will be destroyed over and over again. We saw those videos this week of them saying how Israeli women are inhuman and all deserve to be killed.

This is a group that was voted for by Palestinians and Hamas’ actions largely celebrated by the majority of the population. By the same turn, That fact also DOES NOT justify a situation where Palestinian people are left to suffer and starve and live in fear, we are just creating the next cycle of conflict and must all abide by a basic moral code regardless of previous ‘wrongs’, especially when those wrongs aren’t committed by individuals but a state.

I guess this is my inarticulate long winded way of suggesting that what you are asking for is arguably propoganda and could be accused of emoting to generate more hatred and division. We need empathy yes, but we will not find peace if we are using that as a hollow attempt to justify the actions of one party or undermine the right to the peaceful existence of the other.

we all have the right to live in peace. The difficult question is how Israelis and Palestinians now achieve this until both parties accept that their future survival is reliant on the safety and well being of the other side.

I don't think you have read my posts as you mention that I was only interested in one sides perspective and was using this question as a device.

This post was triggered by books I have been reading from people on both sides of the history. The Israeli author was speaking about empathy and recognising the other sides perspective in order for positive change.
I wrote in my previous post about the perspective of the Jewish people needing a homeland after WW2 while also mentioning the feelings of the Palestinians displaced.

I'm sorry but I do think that history is relevant and one of the reasons that this conflict is still going on today is the ease in which we are happy to brush history under the carpet . I also think that lack of empathy and dehuminisation on both sides enables the killing we have seen.

You said that the 'the difficult question is how Israelis and Palestinians live together' and I would argue that empathy and putting yourself in the others shoes is a great way to start. It may seem like a trivial thing but if you can't see and understand the other sides perspective, pain, dreams, aspirations then there will never be peace.

OP posts:
Original poster
sparklyrabbits · 31/03/2024 09:46

"We have to find a way to live in peace. And to do that we have to see each other as human beings with a right to exist, whoever they are and whatever their race or religion. The difficulty with this impossible subject is that Israel and the Jewish diaspora are being explicitly told by Hamas that they do not have a right to exist and will be destroyed over and over again. We saw those videos this week of them saying how Israeli women are inhuman and all deserve to be killed."

I actually agree with much of what you say @Muthaofcats .However, this paragraph stood out for me. I have no chips in the game on this topic and my hatred from Hamas is beyond words and they will never be a partner for peace. There is also hate from certain people on the Israeli side. I remember watching a Louis Thereoux documentary about the settlers in the West Bank and they felt the Palestinians had to right to be on their territory. An Anthony Bourdain doc where he visited the West Bank there was 'Death to Arabs' spray painted on people's homes.

Then some of the actions of the IDF that I have seen, calling Palestinian women whores,bulldozering dead bodies, snipers killing young children and the elderly, soldiers laughing as mosques etc are blown up. So it could be argued that their is hatred towards the Palestinians and that this has built up for a long time prior to the 7th Oct. So that intrigues me as well. I would love an insight into the education system in Israel and what is taught about Palestinians. Is it an education system that promotes peace or one that ensures this conflict will never end?

OP posts:
LeoTheLeopard · 31/03/2024 09:56

Muthaofcats · 31/03/2024 07:04

Stepping into the shoes of both sides of a conflict is a really sensible idea, the first step on the rocky path to resolution.

Really important to see both sides experience in order to remember their humanity.

I guess the only pause would be if you were using this as a device rather than truly being interested in resolution. I query this because you have asked the reader to step into the shoes of only one side, and whilst there’s nothing wrong on the face of it with doing that, it seems a rather arbitrary focus. Surely one has to reference the other side’s history and experience too? After all, you couldn’t find a more poignant example of persecution and displacement than Jewish people? So whilst that doesn’t detract from the necessity to consider the experience of both sides of any conflict, I just feel slightly wary about WHY this post has been written, and why such a narrow lens applied to your view point?

I am also not sure how such an emotive question helps us find a solution; given that one might feel sad for the man asked to leave his home, but before the Arab occupiers of the land, you’d have found Jews who would have been similarly displaced both from their homeland, all the way back to the romans and on and on and on. But also from their homes in other Middle Eastern and European countries where they’ve been driven out and killed to such an extent that they now form a tiny tiny minority of the population.

The issue is that the people being displaced are usually just interested in a peaceful life and love their families just the same, it’s the actions of their states that dictates a lot of what happens to them (although of course those leaders need to have been elected in the first place) so your point about empathising for them does still stand - in that of course it must be horrible for anyone being told to uproot and leave their homes.

What I am trying to say is that looking backwards at history doesn’t get us very far. Even if one did, you can’t draw an arbitrary line about when to start, do you look at when that particular home was occupied by a Palestinian? Or the century before ? Or before that?

And even if you felt the injustice of that decision of somebody’s great grandfathers , it wouldn’t justify you going into that same house and raping and abducting his grandchildren.

We have to find a way to live in peace. And to do that we have to see each other as human beings with a right to exist, whoever they are and whatever their race or religion. The difficulty with this impossible subject is that Israel and the Jewish diaspora are being explicitly told by Hamas that they do not have a right to exist and will be destroyed over and over again. We saw those videos this week of them saying how Israeli women are inhuman and all deserve to be killed.

This is a group that was voted for by Palestinians and Hamas’ actions largely celebrated by the majority of the population. By the same turn, That fact also DOES NOT justify a situation where Palestinian people are left to suffer and starve and live in fear, we are just creating the next cycle of conflict and must all abide by a basic moral code regardless of previous ‘wrongs’, especially when those wrongs aren’t committed by individuals but a state.

I guess this is my inarticulate long winded way of suggesting that what you are asking for is arguably propoganda and could be accused of emoting to generate more hatred and division. We need empathy yes, but we will not find peace if we are using that as a hollow attempt to justify the actions of one party or undermine the right to the peaceful existence of the other.

we all have the right to live in peace. The difficult question is how Israelis and Palestinians now achieve this until both parties accept that their future survival is reliant on the safety and well being of the other side.

I find it very poignant that genocide is being meted out on Palestinians and the aggressors demand to be known as the victims.

AliceA2021 · 31/03/2024 10:08

I imagine that most of the people who lost their homes in 1948, both Palestinian and Jewish are dead or very elderly now.
You cannot go back in time. Looking forward for everyone for peace instead? How far back do you look for any country? The displaced people both Jewish and Arab? There was no country called Palestine then.

Both Palestinian people and Israeli people need their own states, free from terrorism and war. Self government in the interests of the people living in each state (imo).

Holding onto my grandad whether Arab or Jewish had to move doesn't solve anything. Building a new home for the descendants might go towards peaceful solution though.

Imagine almost every other country not in Europe and how people have been displaced over time.

Scirocco · 31/03/2024 10:45

Thank you, @sparklyrabbits . At a time when both Palestinian and Israeli people are being dehumanised and stereotyped, it's important for us to keep trying to have empathy.

Muthaofcats · 31/03/2024 11:18

sparklyrabbits · 31/03/2024 09:28

I don't think you have read my posts as you mention that I was only interested in one sides perspective and was using this question as a device.

This post was triggered by books I have been reading from people on both sides of the history. The Israeli author was speaking about empathy and recognising the other sides perspective in order for positive change.
I wrote in my previous post about the perspective of the Jewish people needing a homeland after WW2 while also mentioning the feelings of the Palestinians displaced.

I'm sorry but I do think that history is relevant and one of the reasons that this conflict is still going on today is the ease in which we are happy to brush history under the carpet . I also think that lack of empathy and dehuminisation on both sides enables the killing we have seen.

You said that the 'the difficult question is how Israelis and Palestinians live together' and I would argue that empathy and putting yourself in the others shoes is a great way to start. It may seem like a trivial thing but if you can't see and understand the other sides perspective, pain, dreams, aspirations then there will never be peace.

Show quote history

Sorry i must have missed that, and agree with all that you are saying about empathy and seeing the human in each other.
I think this is where the distinction between Hamas and truly ‘innocent’ Palestinians comes in as I don’t believe the former are capable or humanity and does therefore raise the difficult question of how much, if any, humanity they deserve in return.

Muthaofcats · 31/03/2024 11:22

AliceA2021 · 31/03/2024 10:08

I imagine that most of the people who lost their homes in 1948, both Palestinian and Jewish are dead or very elderly now.
You cannot go back in time. Looking forward for everyone for peace instead? How far back do you look for any country? The displaced people both Jewish and Arab? There was no country called Palestine then.

Both Palestinian people and Israeli people need their own states, free from terrorism and war. Self government in the interests of the people living in each state (imo).

Holding onto my grandad whether Arab or Jewish had to move doesn't solve anything. Building a new home for the descendants might go towards peaceful solution though.

Imagine almost every other country not in Europe and how people have been displaced over time.

Edited

This was kind of my point, that going back in history helps to understand context but isn’t enough in and of itself - there’s a point at which one has to look forward because there’s so much pain and picking at those wounds just reopens the same cyclical fight over and over. At what point do we say ‘enough!’ for all our children.

so many seem to see this as Israel v Palestine and allow Hamas to get off scot free; there’s zero holding to account and it’s hard to apply any moral argument to bloodless terrorists

quantumbutterfly · 31/03/2024 13:24

Muthaofcats · 31/03/2024 11:22

This was kind of my point, that going back in history helps to understand context but isn’t enough in and of itself - there’s a point at which one has to look forward because there’s so much pain and picking at those wounds just reopens the same cyclical fight over and over. At what point do we say ‘enough!’ for all our children.

so many seem to see this as Israel v Palestine and allow Hamas to get off scot free; there’s zero holding to account and it’s hard to apply any moral argument to bloodless terrorists

Show quote history

Indeed, I've known many refugees who hold on to their history but embrace their futures.

We can't change the past but moving forward from where we are will not happen with hatred and/or fear on either side, and that is a nebulous enemy.

Muthaofcats · 31/03/2024 14:03

It is - I think the focus on empathy is irrelevant when it comes to Hamas. I don’t believe you can empathise with Hamas. I don’t understand why they aren’t being held accountable for this situation, why no one is furious at their blocking aid, rejection of ceasefire negotiations and starting this whole hateful episode of conflict in the first place. Even if one could empathise with why a Palestine felt affronted by the fact of Israel, it doesn’t get you any further. It doesn’t justify rape or killing of children and grandmothers and teenagers dancing at a festival. There has been a great deal of successful propaganda to spread the malicious lie of ‘Israel as colonisers’ which is just plainly ignoring Middle Eastern history but even if you disagree with Israel as a nation state or believe the accusations of mistreatment towards gazans on. The West Bank etc, you still can’t possibly believe any of what Hamas did and will continue to do is something to be empathised with . So ‘humanise’ citizens on both sides all you like, but Hamas still does need to be removed. There will be no peace until they are gone - I just don’t know how one achieves this without harming innocent people when they embed themselves in schools and hospitals.
So yes empathise with Palestinians, yes make sure they have access to aid, but not at the expense of condoning or supporting Hamas.

AliceA2021 · 31/03/2024 15:21

Muthaofcats · 31/03/2024 11:22

This was kind of my point, that going back in history helps to understand context but isn’t enough in and of itself - there’s a point at which one has to look forward because there’s so much pain and picking at those wounds just reopens the same cyclical fight over and over. At what point do we say ‘enough!’ for all our children.

so many seem to see this as Israel v Palestine and allow Hamas to get off scot free; there’s zero holding to account and it’s hard to apply any moral argument to bloodless terrorists

Show quote history

Indeed

Auvergne63 · 31/03/2024 15:53

believe the accusations of mistreatment towards gazans
It is not a question of belief but facts. You can't argue with facts.
why no one is furious at their blocking aid
It is quite hard to block aid when said aid is being stopped by the IDF, outside Gaza. Are you saying that Hamas are stopping aid coming in? Please provide verified evidence for this. Do they appropriate some of the aid? I would say yes to that.
rejection of ceasefire negotiations
You mean as much as the Israeli government does?
There will be no peace until they are gone
Agree but the far right Israeli government must go too.
without harming innocent people when they embed themselves in schools and hospitals.
Once again, please provide independent and verified evidence of this. You won't be able to because international press is barred from entering Gaza and the Palestinian journalists are being targeted or killed. Why is that?
So ‘humanise’ citizens on both sides all you like
You obviously don't. Hamas is not every single Palestinian.
Disclaimer: I an not pro Hamas.