To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

[march10th]

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

I agree with you. And I am not Arab. But I don't discuss it on here anymore as it simply makes me furious. Collective slaughter is never OK.

Also, no one acknowledges how scary it is for an arab in the UK watching this. Not one person in my family or friends groups knows or believes in anything remotely antisemitic... We just know that if we voice our opinions it's what they are labelled as.

Now that the Israeli government is so obvious with how they intend to take everything over and rebuild- I mean even Jarred Kushner is comfortable enough to talk about how valuable this land is now.

I think this will go the way of all people who have been ethnically cleansed. What will remain will be the diaspora that was able to leave as refugees and their descendants. In 50 years western governments will make noise about reparations and how acknowledgement should be made etc.

For those who are voting IABU, please explain to me your thought process. Maybe I am biased as these are my people- but I really would like to understand.

I think most people are unlikely to change their minds now. Positions have become entrenched.

I just dont understand the other side?

I don't understand either OP. But like the pp I try and avoid the threads regarding this now as the justifications of ethnic cleansing I find sickening. Just as I found the slaughter of innocent Israelis sickening.

But people have a curious mindset of 'for or against'. So if you are against the murder of Palestinians you must be pro Hamas and the murder of Israelis and are therefore anti-Semitic.

Luckily in London I see many free Palestine badges and posters in windows and had a lovely chat with an older woman on the tube who had a badge and continued to go on marches despite feeling disheartened.

That channel 4 news piece featuring that starving, emaciated young boy broke my heart and anyone who saw it and wasn't disgusted at Israel's actions have some sort of empathy bypass.

I am not Arab but I want you to know that I support your view whole-heartedly.

And the fact that currently 33% of people think yabu is depressing and terrifying in equal measure.

because they're brainwashed by Israel's government, they see Arab palestinians as less than human.

I wish the people thinking IABU would come to the table and talk

It is not ethnic cleansing. Israel are fighting a defensive war against a genocidal enemy. The death toll is appalling but this is because the war is being fought in a densely populated area against an enemy who use their own civilians as human shields.

We just know that if we voice our opinions it's what they are labelled as

Well you've voiced your opinion here and haven't been called anti semetic have you? In what situation do you feel you can't voice your opinion?

I'm afraid I see this notion that you can't speak out against Israel without being called anti semetic as absolute nonsense.

It reminds me of right wing types who proclaim that they can't say "happy Christmas" anymore, because people get offended. It's just not accurate.

I'm Jewish, my dh is not...but I had one of his relatives sit in my house whilst speaking out against Israel while I listened in silence, then proclaim that he couldn't say anything about the situation without being called anti semetic. Utterly bizarre.

So you are happy to state that you are content that those human shields are simply collateral damage? You feel the end justifies the means?

It’s impossible to be “content” about this whole situation. There are no easy choices here. War is hellish and civilians are unavoidably (and inadvertently) killed, but Israel face a group who want to kill all the Jews. It is reasonable for Israel to extirpate an enemy who are such an existential threat.

Except that Israel are fighting an ideology and you can't bomb/starve an ideology out of existence. In fact a military expert on channel 4 news stated that for every civilian killed, 10 terrorists are created. So taking away the moral question, this is stupid strategy.

I also take exception to the use of the word 'inadvertently'. Anyone looking at the thousands of starving, limbless, homeless innocent civilians of Gaza can see there is nothing inadvertent about it.

I'm sorry OP, it must be difficult for you. I have thought about how difficult it must be to be an Arab in the UK right now. I think its quietened down a bit now but the frenzy members of your government were whipping up against people marching for peace was really shocking to those of us living in countries where the government is more moderate and take a peaceful stance. It must feel very hostile knowing that some people view people like you as merely 'human shields' or 'collateral damage'. I hope it helps a little to know that there are millions of people around the world who have spent the past 5 months protesting, fund raising and spreading awareness for the Palestinian people ❤️

One of the (many) horrific things about this conflict though is that civilians are not being inadvertently killed. They are being purposely targeted alongside the enemy. There are so many witness reports and footage of this happening that it is pretty much impossible to refute this now.

Precisely!

You are right, you can’t defeat an ideology with bombs, but you can kill a lot of terrorists and enfeeble their infrastructure and organisation. Israel face a mortal threat from an enemy who would commit another holocaust against the Jews given half the chance.

Israel are not deliberately killing civilians. Civilian deaths are a cost of war. A terrible but unavoidable cost. As I say, no easy choices. I believe it is a just war. But I know people have entrenched positions on this.

@CaterhamReconstituted what's the reason you believe Israeli forces aren't deliberately killing civilians?

Lack of evidence. And why would they? The killing of civilians goes fundamentally against their values, unlike Hamas. To say otherwise comes down to the belief that of course it’s Israel so they must be wicked. I am very moved about at what is happening in Gaza but ultimately I side with Israel when you consider the threat they face. But, as I say, I know people have their positions on this so perhaps we can just respectfully disagree and leave it there.

Thanks for explaining; I think it's helpful to understand the reasons behind people's perspectives so I do appreciate you taking the time to reply.

I appreciate your measured replies to my posts, even if I disagree with you.

I would say that considering the death toll of Palestinians compared to Israelis pre this war, you could equally argue that Israel poses an existential threat to Palestine. And this is rather borne out by the fact that it is believed 13,000 children have been killed during this conflict.

I suppose this is one of those occasions that I really can't understand your position just as you probably don't understand mine.

Are my views 'entrenched'? Possibly. But then I first donated to Palestinian charities 20 years ago when I witnessed Israel bulldozing civilian homes and reading about Palestinian children who had PTSD due to the occupation. Perhaps those same children are now members of Hamas. Israel may kill them but new children who are now witnessing their mothers, fathers, siblings blown to pieces or starve to death may very well grow up filled with understandable hatred and rage for those who carried out these atrocities. More than a few would want revenge (rightly or wrongly).

So perhaps from Israel's point of view, wiping out all Palestinians is justified. Otherwise they are simply piling more trauma upon trauma and hatred upon hatred and adding to the never ending cycle of violence.

From the UN and taking just one year picked at random, 2002:

'In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002'

There is plenty more evidence that Israel have consistently targeted civilians.

Israeli-Palestinian fatalities since 2000 - OCHA Special Focus - Question of Palestine (un.org)

Thanks for the reply. It’s so easy to shout past each other in this discussion, I’m pleased this isn’t happening. I guess a constructive way to look at it would be to focus on a solution. I pray for a ceasefire but I understand (and agree with) the position that you can’t have a ceasefire without any conditions. Some people are saying that Israel should stop their military campaign even without the return of the hostages.

I also think you cannot have a lasting peace with Hamas and they are not a viable negotiating partner on any negotiation on statehood. So it’s difficult to know what to do.

I do think the Israelis have probably given up on any two-state solution though - for them it’s just a perpetual management of the status quo.

Except the reasons behind her perspective is based on fallacy and a refusal to countenance that there are those in the IDF (as there are in all armies of any country) open to killing civilians. There is no race/religion above the most vile of human actions sadly. No side is all virtuous and no side is all evil