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Conflict in the Middle East

"The only purpose of these marches is to intimidate British Jews" (part three)

502 replies

stomachamelon · 25/02/2024 20:01

Carrying on from part two....

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stomachamelon · 25/02/2024 20:04

you don’t agree that showing people the full impact of their actions can help to steer them onto the right path.

@PeasfullPerson

I have to disagree with this.
If you go and seek out information that's all well and good. But what if your 'right path' is not shared by a mother with her child, or a group of teenagers, three builders out for a coffee?

Do people not have the right to go about their own business or just have their own opinions. It's a bit self righteous.

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PeasfullPerson · 25/02/2024 20:10

@stomachamelon Oh! I can’t have made what I said very clear.

What I said (below) was in response to another poster saying I was naive for hoping that if the people who intimidated the mother and child saw her post they might realise the full impact of their actions and have second thoughts about what they had done.

‘It is very rude of you to call me naive because you don’t agree that showing people the full impact of their actions can help to steer them onto the right path.’

PeasfullPerson · 25/02/2024 20:11

‘This lady and her daughter obviously felt very intimidated by this group, I hope the people involved in this will read what she has written and think twice about the impact they had. I know I certainly would.’

PeasfullPerson · 25/02/2024 20:15

Comments by ThaiFishCake

‘You're very naive to think the protesters in this case, will ' learn from their mistakes ' - they don't give a shit. It doesn't take a genius to realise it may not be a good idea to storm a Costa coffee filled with families to enforce their message.’

stomachamelon · 25/02/2024 20:26

@PeasfullPerson sorry I see what you mean. You can but hope.

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stomachamelon · 25/02/2024 20:28

@ThaiFishCake

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noblegiraffe · 25/02/2024 21:14

Points of note for those new to these threads: The thread title is a quote from the article which started the threads and people on the threads generally disagree with it.
Most people on the threads also are not arguing for the marches to be banned.

I posted this on the first thread in December and yet it is still relevant months later.

"What could happen on the marches to make Jews less anxious about them?

No more 'from the river to the sea'
No more of that bloody 'globalise the intifada'
No attacking people carrying banners critical of Hamas (and more banners critical of Hamas)
No intimidating people going into shops
No shaming people coming out of McDonalds
No Nazi or holocaust comparisons
No people dressed in Hamas uniforms
No claiming Hamas are a 'resistance' organisation
No ripping down of hostage posters
No claiming 'there were some Jews there so it must be fine'"

These things have not happened, therefore one must conclude that the organisers of the marches (some of whom also appear to be organising the protests outside McDonalds/Costa which a lot of people do think should be banned) do not have any particular interest in making Jews less anxious about the marches.

stomachamelon · 25/02/2024 21:15

@noblegiraffe sorry I should have done that.

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etmoiandme · 25/02/2024 21:17

This reply has been deleted

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PeasfullPerson · 25/02/2024 21:23

Thanks for clarifying that @noblegiraffe

AliceA2021 · 26/02/2024 08:14

Mother and autistic child intimidated in Costa Coffee by a mob shouting free Palestine helps no one.

qunari · 26/02/2024 09:04

PeasfullPerson · 25/02/2024 20:10

@stomachamelon Oh! I can’t have made what I said very clear.

What I said (below) was in response to another poster saying I was naive for hoping that if the people who intimidated the mother and child saw her post they might realise the full impact of their actions and have second thoughts about what they had done.

‘It is very rude of you to call me naive because you don’t agree that showing people the full impact of their actions can help to steer them onto the right path.’

Do you actually think the kind of shitbag who harrases people outside Costa care if they've upset an autistic child?

PeasfullPerson · 26/02/2024 11:45

@qunari What point are you trying to make here and how is it helpful to the issue?

qunari · 26/02/2024 12:22

PeasfullPerson · 26/02/2024 11:45

@qunari What point are you trying to make here and how is it helpful to the issue?

The point is that the kind of shitbag who harasses people outside Costa probably doesn't care if they've upset an autistic child.

PeasfullPerson · 26/02/2024 12:35

Well if you don’t think that cognitive empathy/perspective taking has an impact on antisocial acts then you better let the experts designing offender behaviour programmes know. Perhaps send a memo telling them that it would be a better idea to simply call people ‘shitbags’.

CatsKnowTheAnswer · 26/02/2024 14:02

PeasfullPerson · 26/02/2024 12:35

Well if you don’t think that cognitive empathy/perspective taking has an impact on antisocial acts then you better let the experts designing offender behaviour programmes know. Perhaps send a memo telling them that it would be a better idea to simply call people ‘shitbags’.

We'll have to see how it plays out then. If there are any more random attacks on innocent families or business owners from here on in, I think we'll have our answer.

Scirocco · 26/02/2024 14:43

What we do in relation to the points raised earlier -

No more 'from the river to the sea' - We have other, better things to say. This isn't a chant we start and if people start it we start an alternative one. If people say it or use it on signs, we try to engage them in discussions about it - usually people are just saying it because they heard it somewhere without understanding the sensitivities. We have sign- and banner-making activity sessions which we encourage people to attend - as well as helping maintain a sense of community, it gives an opportunity to support people struggling and give feedback on signs (eg "do you actually want to carry that [offensive/graphic/stupid/badly-spelled] in public?").

No more of that bloody 'globalise the intifada' - I've only heard this from one particular sub-group of people. We aren't actually allowed to officially ban them, but if they turn up we put them in one little bit and the police keep a close eye on them. They're kept away from more vulnerable people in the protests and it's made clear to them that they are not welcome and should go be horrible elsewhere - with a sustained approach they've actually massively dropped their attendance so it's rare to see them out in sufficient numbers to feel brave enough to shout - I think I've seen them at maybe one of the last 4 and they were much more subdued.

No attacking people carrying banners critical of Hamas (and more banners critical of Hamas) - We've not had any violence against people criticising Hamas. We try to keep our events focused on particular messages, so at an event calling for the UK government to call for a cease-fire, we probably wouldn't have many signs explicitly criticising Hamas, but there are some and we also have events that are more specifically about that aspect of things.

No intimidating people going into shops - We don't organise any events aimed at intimidating anyone or blockading/taking over shops or other businesses. If (likely the above sub-group of) people break off from an event to do that sort of thing, they're leaving the agreed event to do so - after guidance from the police about what to do, we've been told the best course of action for us to take is to let the police know and then it becomes their job to intervene as needed. We are mindful that marches and other demonstrations can feel intimidating just by their existence. So, we rotate round different routes and venues (so even if something is happening every weekend, it's not in the same place), and we try to avoid getting too 'angry' or graphic in what's being said.

No shaming people coming out of McDonalds - As above.

No Nazi or holocaust comparisons - I think a lot of people do still use WW2 as their go-to for thinking about conflict and human rights issues, often because they don't actually know of any other relevant examples. We don't use this sort of imagery, we discourage it, and if people insist on bringing it anyway then we point them out to the police and we would look to keep them away from our more vulnerable participants.

No people dressed in Hamas uniforms - Not had any of this.

No claiming Hamas are a 'resistance' organisation - This can be a tricky one to balance. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation, and we are clear about that. But people can be 'clever' in their wording. We won't always get this right but we do try, and if anyone points out something we've missed, we'll try to address it. Our 'official' line is that it is ok to bring things or say things about non-violent resistance but that we do not want anything that could be interpreted as supporting violence in any form, and that anything supporting Hamas gets reported to the police.

No ripping down of hostage posters - Not seen this near us.

No claiming 'there were some Jews there so it must be fine'" - I'd never claim that we're getting it all right. I hope we're doing a good enough job that anyone who wants to participate in campaigning for a ceasefire agreement and longer-term stabilisation of the region can find an activity or event where they feel supported, and that we're raising awareness without upsetting too many people.

CatsKnowTheAnswer · 26/02/2024 15:01

@Scirocco

Thank you for this. It's very helpful to read that some protesters are acknowledging there are problems at the marches, but are actually trying to do something about it! I wish there were a whole lot more of this. You've articulated yourself beautifully, not a hint of minimising people's negative experiences or downplaying their concerns; but rather the active steps you're taking to address issues.

stomachamelon · 26/02/2024 16:12

@Scirocco just out of interest who is the 'we' you are referring to as it would be helpful to know who the 'we' is that is more receptive and less aggressive/ unapproachable about concerns?

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marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 26/02/2024 16:40

I think it's very self obsessed to believe that the marches for Palestine are all about intimidating Jews.

Scirocco · 26/02/2024 16:42

@stomachamelon , I'd prefer not to say the specific branch/organisation as it would be quite outing and I use this website for a lot of other things as well, but in general terms, there are a lot of local branches of organisations like Parents for Palestine which try to be family-friendly and inclusive, smaller organisations associated with charities, and local branches of even the bigger organisations are often more receptive to concerns and constructive advice than 'head office' might be. (Local branches may not necessarily share all the views of 'head office', either, and there will be differences of opinion and perspectives between areas and individuals).

My advice would be to contact local organisers, sound them out and see if you'd feel comfortable discussing things. In fact, I think it's even more important to tell people your concerns if your local organisers don't seem supportive - otherwise we end up with march organisers thinking it's ok to scare children in coffee shops.

stomachamelon · 26/02/2024 16:49

@Scirocco thanks that's really constructive and helpful.

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Scirocco · 26/02/2024 17:19

Also, if your local organisers aren't particularly receptive, then if anything it's even more important to raise concerns, and escalate to their 'head office' if needed.

Snowypeak · 26/02/2024 17:24

Thanks @Scirocco

For a vast majority the protests are against the murders of thousands of innocent children and their dispossession and the total destruction of their homes, schools and hospitals, mosques, history and food supply.

These are important things to protest about.

PeasfullPerson · 26/02/2024 18:04

Thank you @Scirocco

Brilliant to know all the steps that you and your group are taking to ensure the protests are peaceful and respectful.

Well done!