"The only purpose of these marches is to intimidate British Jews" (part three)

[stomachamelon]

Carrying on from part two....

>>If you would prefer to discuss Israeli politics and policies there are loads of other threads to do that on

This thread is about the marches. The marches are about the situation in the middle east/gaza and of course Israeli policy there.

Some claim of course that they are anti semitic/some sort of front and intended to threaten British Jews.

I and many others would dispute that.

As is our democratic right.

There have been plenty! To be fair, they might have been deleted because of the blatant racism that not even MN could ignore. But there are posts scattered all over other threads about it. There are threads that are more sensible about being pro-Palestinian and others all about delegitimising Israel's existence.

I too would be interested.
I would have thought such a thread would have found itself in trouble.
Looking forward to answer @Humdingerydoo

Your previous post was trying to say this debate is about Israel, not antisemitism. That's incorrect. This specific thread is about the intimidation of Jews at the marches because of the amount of antisemitism. Feel free to claim that there isn't any antisemitism at these marches, you'll have plenty of people on here supporting you for it.

Ok I haven't seen any and I would imagine comments like that would have been deleted. I think tensions are high enough without suggestions that people are openly discussing Israel's right to exist. It's just fueling an already well lit fire so I think we need to be considered with our language because how you phrased it did read like there was a thread discussing it which I was shocked by.

The purpose of these marches is to put pressure on our government, which is an ally of Israel, to use its influence to tell its supposed ally to stop. This is why we don't see the same degree of protest about the actions of Russia or China; it's not being targeted for protest because it is a Jewish state, but because it's an ally of this country.

NB, I am Jewish and my husband and I have both been on marches, me with a Jewish bloc and he joined one wearing his kippah , so clearly showing he was Jewish and neither of us experienced on saw any antisemitism over several hours at these massive protests.

Did some happen that we didn't see? Yes. Should people who engage in antisemitism at protests be arrested? Yes. Should the protests be stopped for 'being divisive' or supposedly 'threatning Jews'? Absolutely not.

I am thoroughly pissed off that ersatz concern for the wellbeing of Jews is being used as an excuse to shut down democratic expression. The Tories don't give a rat's ass about us other than when they can use us to browbeat the left.

suggest you read the title of the thread. It's about the marches.
Different folks (and organisations) have different views on them.
I have never claimed there is no anti semitism at the marches - they are big big marches - lots and lots of people - since anti semitism knows no boundaries it would actually be rather odd if amongst such a large group of people there were no anti-semites. There may of course also be rapists/kiddie fiddlers/house burglars/Queen fans amongst the massive crowd also. I have been on two London ones and seen no anti semitism though. Admittedly I have not taken folk aside and given them the third degree (I have no powers) about any hidden beliefs, but anti semitism is not a charge to be chucked around lightly. 1 - because it is a serious allegation and can negatively impact the accused. 2 - because it undermines the fight against anti semitism.

There have been threads discussing it! They were obviously reported though. I remember one thread in particular that had hundreds of posts, I think it might actually have hit 1000, on it before it was taken down. The poster went through a phase of starting a hideously antisemitic or anti-Israel existence thread, having it deleted and then starting another one, rephrasing it ever so slightly. It would usually start with "Excuse my ignorance, but". I can't find the threads now so I assume they were all deleted. I also assume that poster was eventually permanently banned for consistent racism and a refusal to do better. The poster wasn't alone though - they had plenty of vocal support from others.

What specific part of the marches is it about? What does the quote say?

No, this specific debate is about whether or not the marches are intimidating to Jews because of the amount of antisemitism at them. Not sure why you're so uncomfortable discussing the topic at hand.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

You suggested to the poster that they could go to a thread that was discussing Israel's right to exist. I was querying where that thread was, it's not there and whatever posts that did have these kind of racist comments has been reported and deleted so it is not accurate to suggest a poster goes to that thread. That is what I was pointing out and the inference that a thread like that is still there would rightly upset and anger people so it is not helpful to suggest it is.

Ok 👍🏻 There are still plenty of posts scattered around the threads but I take your point. In my defence, I hadn't realised all the other threads were deleted - I only realised when I looked for them after your post.

Sorry, but how are antisemitic posts on SM linked to the ceasefire marches? Is it your opinion that the marches directly cause racists to post antisemitic comments online, spray paint swastikas on synagogues or throw rubbish at Jewish pedestrians from their cars? (Actual incidents)

I fully agree that antisemitic hate crimes do intimidate and cause Jewish communities distress and fear for their safety, but I can’t see how the ceasefire marches are a direct cause of such intimidation.

In 2021, there was a huge increase in antisemitic hate crimes then as well, but there were no big marches critical of the Israeli government’s treatment of the Palestinians.

In November last year there was also a big march against antisemtism in London that numbered in the hundreds of thousands, what are your thoughts on that? Reassuring or ?

@SummerFeverVenice the March in November was very different.
No calls to remove another country.
No calls for intifada
No hatred or abuse of a people.
No aggression or attempts to attack others or get at people/ places.
It was peaceful.

No arrests about from the right wing knob who turned up after being asked not too.

I think your confusion stems from you putting words in my mouth and taking my words out of context in order to make a point.

I didn't say there was a link between marches and social media. I have been responding to various posters who have made various claims.

2021 is a particularly awful example to use as there was a massive march then as well, followed by convoys (of people who had driven down to attend the march) driving through heavily Jewish areas shouting truly awful antisemitic things about raping their daughters etc. We also had people slowly driving past my child's Jewish primary school shouting "from the river to the sea" and whatnot. The school is on a quiet residential area - they were only there to intimidate school children. If anything, your example proves my point rather than yours.

I don't really have any strong opinions on the march against antisemitism. I was glad they excluded Tommy Robinson&co from it but that's about it.

I agree you had not explicitly said your opinion was that there was a direct link between the marches causing antisemitic hate crimes, but I did not say you had. I asked you a question on it to see what your thoughts are.

I thought you might be implying a cause and effect relationship by constantly offering up antisemitic SM posts as proof of the marches being antisemitic.

It appears that you do have this opinion after all. Thank you for confirming that is what you have been implying.

Ofc not everyone is going to agree with the association you have made here that the ceasefire marches are a direct cause of antisemitic SM posts. I don’t really agree with you on this, just like I would not agree with anyone who claimed the marches against antisemtism cause islamaphobia and anti Muslim hate crimes.

I think it is the fact that the conflict is Israel vs Hamas that is causing both antisemitism and islamaphobia to increase. Every crisis we see corresponding rises in applicable hate crimes. Anti-Russian hate crime with Ukraine invasion. Anti-Asian hate crime during Covid because the Chinese were blamed by many for the virus.

Maybe don't tell people what their opinions are? I've never said or implied anything of the sort. Blatant gaslighting on your part. Absolutely ridiculous.

apple.news/APWncWJP6SsiNpa2RQg3NlA

To show the intimidation of British Jews. The article speaks for itself.

There's been a terror attack in Zurich last night.

According to the Swiss papers the suspect is 15yo. Also he was apparently laughing when he was detained. Only 15 years old!

The victim a 50yo Jewish teacher.

news.sky.com/story/not-the-british-way-jewish-people-terrified-to-go-out-of-their-houses-says-jeremy-hunt-13086241

Similar issues in America (New York)

www.instagram.com/p/C4Dn4FsO89h/?igsh=YnlxMW8wbGY2bDc2

@Humdingerydoo
”2021 is a particularly awful example to use as there was a massive march then as well, followed by convoys (of people who had driven down to attend the march) driving through heavily Jewish areas shouting truly awful antisemitic things about raping their daughters etc. We also had people slowly driving past my child's Jewish primary school shouting "from the river to the sea" and whatnot. The school is on a quiet residential area - they were only there to intimidate school children. If anything, your example proves my point rather than yours.”

My point was that I don’t think that the marches directly cause antisemitic hate crimes or SM posts to happen.

You wrote an example that proves your point but not my point, but are now telling me that your point is not your opinion (I am “gaslighting” apparently for presuming the points you argue for reflect your opinion).

Perhaps a direct question will clarify things:

In your opinion, do the marches directly cause antisemitic hate crimes and SM posts which then causes Jewish communities to feel insecure and intimidated?

Yes or No or Maybe or Don’t Know?

If not Yes/Maybe, then why have you been so assiduously arguing that they do when that is contrary to your opinion?

Yes, the marches directly contribute to antisemitic hate crimes. In my opinion they've got very little to do with SM but I speak for no one but myself.

Are we done with this now? Or would you like to make any more unfounded assumptions about me?

And yes, you were gaslighting me earlier. Let's not pretend you weren't.

Update regarding ceasefire