This picture of Israeli soldiers smiling for a selfie in front of a destroyed Gaza...

[changefromhr]

I know there are lots of pictures. I try to avoid looking as its just so awful but this one couldn't be avoided.

How sickening that the soldiers can smile and act so happy in front of all that destruction.

This is just another picture, from the thousands, that shows how the Palestinians and their lives and homes are seen as worthless.

OK... And I am disappointed in your lack of fairness.

There are many things in life that are not fair.

I don't think it's fair for anyone to sieve through remains to piece together enough of their child's body to bury. I don't think it's fair to be shot and killed while unarmed and begging for help. I don't think it's fair to be shown videos celebrating a loved one's death. I don't think it's fair to kill innocent people for vengeance, land or religious bigotry.

I've always called out hatred, mistreatment in conflict situations and intolerance, regardless of who's doing it. This particular case hits hard because a) it involves people I knew prior to it, b) it is somewhere I have cared about prior to it, c) if the timing had been different, I might actually have been there, and d) the information I have seen shows a whole new level of horror that I've not seen before. And I've seen some pretty bad stuff in some pretty bad places.

I'm not holding the Israeli government and military to an unattainable standard or to a higher standard than any other country. The bar of "not committing alleged war crimes and flattening a country so seriously that there's an active investigation into allegations of genocide" is pretty low... and yet seems so hard to clear.

And in the meantime, the TikTok/Instagram generation pose for selfies.

I've always called out hatred, mistreatment in conflict situations and intolerance, regardless of who's doing it. This particular case hits hard because a) it is somewhere I have cared about prior to it, b) if the timing had been different, I might actually have been there, and c) the information I have seen shows a whole new level of horror that I've not seen before. And I've seen some pretty bad stuff in some pretty bad places.

Isn't it extraordinary that I can apply these three points, but not (directly, at least) your first, to my own viewpoint.

Your second paragraph could be read equally by both sides of this conflict.

Surely says something about the human condition. Mad.

Interesting, given your previous claim to have "no skin in the game".

Also interesting that you can recognise that the things I have mentioned can apply to horrendous things experienced by Israelis and Palestinians, and yet don't seem to consider it acceptable to object when it's Palestinians experiencing them. Why is that?

I don't know what you're trying to insinuate about skin in the game.

I have direct experience of other conflicts and would not do as you are doing, when it comes to criticism of the "aggressor."

But "you do you" as they say on MN! 😊

There's absolutely no point us arguing about this on here, it's a complete waste of time and changes nothing anyway.

In a previous post @Dibilnik , you said you have "no skin in the game", which is usually taken to mean you have nothing particularly invested in something.

However, if you're now saying that this is a place you cared about previously and may well have been, had the timing been different, that isn't really not having "skin in the game".

I do think it's interesting that you picked up on the applicability of the horrible things I mentioned to both Israelis and Palestinians, but consider it unacceptable to object to those things happening to Palestinians. Why is that?

Why is not acceptable to say both groups of people should not have horrible things happening to them? And why is it not acceptable to criticise a government and military force in their conduct of a military operation when that conduct is raising serious concerns about human rights, possible war crimes, etc?

@Scirocco OK, I see why me echoing your list was confusing, sorry. Without revealing more about myself personally, you can safely accept that I'm not linked in any way to Israel or Jewishness.

And of course it is acceptable to criticise the war. I suppose what I find vile is the kind of criticism that happens here on MN. It shows no respect for the humanity of those involved. But then I suppose that's what we have come to expect from social media.

They're deliberately starving millions of people to death. Children are starving to death as we speak. They're gearing up to bomb the shit out of a place where millions of refugees are taking shelter in 4 days' time.

I'm all out of respect and humanity for those responsible for this, it's true.

Children are indeed starving to death. We only know about the ones who die in a hospital.

Warning this is a link to a distressing video of a ten year child who has died of starvation. He is literally a bundle of twigs.

@Dibilnik

And of course it is acceptable to criticise the war. I suppose what I find vile is the kind of criticism that happens here on MN. It shows no respect for the humanity of those involved.

Don't you think that in fact, people having a visceral response to hearing that thousands of people (including many, many children) are slowly starving to death shows humanity?

Do you really believe it is fundamentally wrong to criticise Israel's government and military bosses for behaving in a way that means they are knowingly starving thousands of children to death, even if you also hold Hamas accountable for that?

Do you really believe it is fundamentally wrong to criticise Israel's government and military bosses for behaving in a way that means they are knowingly starving thousands of children to death, even if you alsohold Hamas accountable for that?

But that's not what happens here on MN. What happens is that threads like this crop up, dredging up social media posts etc just to "prove" that Israel is generally depraved.

What do you mean it doesn't happen on mumsnet? What utter nonsense.

How have I failed to show respect for the humanity involved, @Dibilnik ?

And why did you say it would be anti-semitic to object to the actions of the Israeli government and IDF? Why, when it is widely considered basic human decency to condemn the horrible things that happened to Israelis, is it not ok to object to the horrible things happening to Palestinians?

Why, when someone mentions that social media is being used to cause further distress to bereaved and distressed people in relation to deaths in Palestinian Territories, is it considered appropriate to suggest those people "grow up and stop paying attention"? Would that be considered an appropriate suggestion if the media content was in relation to deaths of other groups of people, or is it only appropriate in relation to certain groups? What are the criteria there for what groups need to "grow up" and what groups are deserving of empathy?

I'm sorry but that is what many of us do 'here on Mumsnet'.

I have seen many, many posts (and made some myself) on various threads over the last few months saying that that Israeli government's current behaviour (knowingly causing a population including thousands of children to starve to death) is disgusting and unforgivable.

I and others who have made such posts have been met with 'but Hamas...' responses.

Do you believe that Israel's government behaving in a way that means a population, including thousands of children, are starving to death is disgusting and morally wrong? I'm unsure how anyone can say otherwise so am interested to know your thoughts. You can believe that and also believe Hamas' behaviour is disgusting and morally wrong. They aren't mutually exclusive positions.

@Dibilnik "There's absolutely no point us arguing about this on here, it's a complete waste of time and changes nothing anyway."

Exactly.

But some think that 20 posts a day berating anyone/anything they don't agree with, and posting from unverified X accounts will somehow change the situation.

Sad.

I can see everyone's hinting that I value Palestinian lives less than Israeli lives, or some other such childish nonsense.

I'm glad that sensible debate takes place somewhere on MN; my comments are really about threads like this one.

The AMA thread by the Israeli woman explained better than I ever could why demanding a ceasefire is somewhat problematic.

Not hinting, I'm asking questions in response to your statements.

You have stated it is, in your opinion, anti-semitic to object to the actions of the Israeli government and military, or to object to people's governments supporting those actions.

You have stated that people concerned about the use of social media in mocking and celebrating the deaths of people in Palestine should "grow up and stop paying attention".

You have recognised that the horrible things I mentioned in my post have been experienced by Israelis and Palestinians, but have expressed that it's not acceptable to object to those happening to Palestinians. Why is that?

I find it really confusing that you are unwilling or unable to say that the Israeli governments decision to behave in a way that means a population, including thousands of children, will starve to death is objectively wrong.

It's perfectly possible to condemn that decision while also condemning Hamas and the brutal atrocities that happened on 7/10.

I don't see what benefit there is to you to not condemn Israel's government for the starvation of thousands of civilians, including thousands of children, even if you blame Hamas too. Genuinely, I don't get it.

I condemn both the Israeli government and Hamas. It's not a mutually exclusive position.

@Dibilnik I don’t feel as though you genuinely want to discuss this photo, for example you could have discussed the IDF culture that allows for and has contributed to inappropriate posts by soldiers, the stress of conscription, cognitive *dissonance, or the disturbing disconnect of those in this picture from the reality of the situation. What you have instead done is come on here and berate people for being understandably upset and wanting to talk about what is happening in Gaza. It seems to me that the real point of your comments is to defend the IDF from inappropriate behaviour and shut down the conversation

I don't dredge up social media posts to prove that the Israeli government is generally deprived. They are proving it by their actions and words.

The building behind them is Deaf Children Center.

not sure whether the “its only their faces / they didn’t know what was behind” excuses can be used in this case

https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1765047786620244115

What you have instead done is come on here and berate people for being understandably upset and wanting to talk about what is happening in Gaza.

That wasn't my intention, sorry if that's the effect I've had.

I suppose I feel as though the hatred expressed here on MN belongs elsewhere, e.g. on Twitter/X or Facebook in forums of like-minded people. Here on MN, I'd expect a little more neutrality, or at least awareness that both sides might be reading it. Some of the threads and comments I've read on here have been rather like rubbing the salt into a deep wound and the tone is often gleeful.

But this is social media! I've no idea why I expected MN to be any different. I'm going to take my own advice, grow up, and stop paying attention.

I suppose I feel as though the hatred expressed here on MN belongs elsewhere, e.g. on Twitter/X or Facebook in forums of like-minded people. Here on MN, I'd expect a little more neutrality, or at least awareness that both sides might be reading it
@Dibilnik
I think what you view as hatred is anger and pain on both sides. People are extremely angry and distressed and I'm not sure why you'd expect different on a forum of randoms from all over the world. I have yet to read a thread anywhere on mumsnet where people are neutral, everyone always has an opinion one way or another and often expresses it in a less than diplomatic way.

You're right, @Dulra. I'm not very good on social media (this is my only exposure to it) so I find it difficult coming to terms with the harshness of it. I think what got me going was the stuff posted on here in the immediate aftermath of 7 October 😱 Ever since, I'm probably sensitive to stuff that suggests indifference to Israel's plight, which (if you read the Israeli woman's AMA) could also be construed as including demands for ceasefire.

To sort of paraphrase other PPs, it is possible to condemn and despise the war while also feeling it's a bit of a cheek to expect Israel to stop, especially if we're judging that from a place of distant safety and comfort.

However! I sincerely do not wish to cause even more upset, to anyone, so I will now STFU 😊

I can't believe that you don't know that you're being offensive but however. @Dibilnik

"it's a bit of a cheek to expect Israel to stop"
They're bombing civilians in their tens of thousands and deliberately starving people to death. How is a cheek to ask them to please stop committing genocide?