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Conflict in the Middle East
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MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:01

DownNative · 31/01/2024 16:26

Trying to create a hypothetical where Bin Laden is in a hospital would be playing the Hypothesis Contrary To Fact.

Imaginary events don't change anything about the details or truth of a given situation, so is unhelpful.

But the United States has targeted hospitals under other situations in the past.

As it currently stands, yes, not a lot of credible information is known about this particular operation in the West Bank hospital.

Yet witness pages of confident pronouncements of an Israeli breach of IHL via perfidy.....🤷‍♂️

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That’s because what is definitively known is uncontestably a war crime. What is more credible that CCTV showing them going into the hospital, the photos of the aftermath, and the admission from the Israeli government that it was them? Bounce that against the laws of armed conflict and it was a war crime. There is no exception that can be applied.

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:05

DownNative · 31/01/2024 16:48

As has been posted before at various points, hospitals are not necessarily protected spaces.

And the presence of protected persons also cannot be used to render an area immune from military operations.

Like I said, we don't currently have enough information. On top of that, it is the ICC which would be the correct forum to determine if this specific case the thread was started can be considered to be a war crime.

That hospital was protected at the time they entered it. Article 19 goes on to say that even if a hospital loses its protected status it is only while there is a threat of immediate lethal attack towards enemy troops coming from the hospital. Even if injured combatants are inside a hospital receiving treatment, the hospital does not lose its protected status.

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:12

BackandForthRoundandRound · 01/02/2024 08:53

Oh my goodness.... seriously. They have been terrorising the Palestinian people. They have been murdering innocents ~ including those who happen to have a white flag. They have bulldozed ~ yes, bulldozed ~ innocents who were camped outside a hospital. They have routinely assaulted young children. (Video proof of that also) Attacked ambulances. Attacked paramedics. Assaulted and killed hospital staff, including doctors. Forced hospital staff at gunpoint to leave premature babies in their hospital beds. (The babies passed away as they were left without any care or indeed anyone around for them to take their last breaths) Video proof exists of this also.

They target civilians and their houses. They raid civilian houses and then decide to nose around their underwear drawers (and film themselves doing so and post it in social media ~ one of whom was a British/Israeli who is back over here and there was a protest around him giving a "talk" to disadvantaged young boys) to film themselves destroying UN schools, hospitals and destroying shops also. Throwing items around and happily smashing them all.

Recording themselves dancing and singing about how they are going to "eradicate" the Palestinians. Boasting about how many children they have killed. They celebrate shooting pregnant women ~ that goes back some years and is also well documented. They target women and children.

They choose to destroy and cause terror to civilians.

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I am posting the legal nuances.

It is important to understand that the armed forces of recognised nation states can and do unlawfully use terrorism tactics but this does not make them terrorists. It makes them war criminals.

Terrorism isn’t only done by terrorists.

BackandForthRoundandRound · 01/02/2024 09:15

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:12

I am posting the legal nuances.

It is important to understand that the armed forces of recognised nation states can and do unlawfully use terrorism tactics but this does not make them terrorists. It makes them war criminals.

Terrorism isn’t only done by terrorists.

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Ahh, I see. Definitely agree with you

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:16

Livinginanotherworld · 01/02/2024 00:09

By the rule of law yes he should have been brought to trial. If nothing else they may have got more information out of him. He was executed and his body gone before anyone could even verify him.
We might not like the law, but it would be a complete free for all without it and civil society will just brea down.

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Bin Laden wasn’t “executed” he refused to surrender during a capture or kill mission. His body wasn’t “gone before anyone could verify him” absolute nonsense.

If he had surrendered, he would have been captured, put under arrest and faced trial. He was surrounded by human shields and the six man SEAL team (who were wearing their uniforms, not disguises) and who approached in a military helicopter (not misused civilian transport) and who infiltrated his heavily defended and secure compound (not a hospital) took great care to only killed armed combatants who were shooting at them except for one unarmed woman who was with Bin Laden that lunged towards them and got killed in the cross fire. All the other men, women and many many children he had there as human shields survived.

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:21

BackandForthRoundandRound · 01/02/2024 09:15

Ahh, I see. Definitely agree with you

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Thanks for that.
My concern is that if we get in the habit of saying that the Israeli army “are terrorists” or “are a terrorist army” it cannot be the case legally, and so it is easy to dismiss valid criticism of their use of terrorism on a technicality.

The legally defensible and accurate statement is that “the Israeli army is using illegal terrorism tactics which are war crimes.”

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:24

@DownNative
But the United States has targeted hospitals under other situations in the past.

Do you have an example of the US targeting a hospital?

inkworks273 · 01/02/2024 09:43

@MercanDede Thanks for the clarification.

Justpontificating · 01/02/2024 16:24

Desertrose2023 · 01/02/2024 07:34

Super insightful. Whilst you lecture us some more on perfidy and IHL, here is a video of the paralyzed human being whose brain matter was blown all over his hospital pillow by people you call special forces. Others would just call them terrorists.

His name was Bassel Al-Ghazzawi. Aged 18.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2yaj7towCQ/?igsh=MTN4YXgxNHBtNW81Mg==

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And the serious hole and deep dent in the pillow of this lads hospital bed that has been shown in above videos clearly show an up close execution
But hey
Lets wait for Israel today it was a mistake

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 17:31

inkworks273 · 01/02/2024 09:43

@MercanDede Thanks for the clarification.

Yes. No sign of a struggle, no sign of resisting arrest. Result, bullet went straight through forehead and out the back of the skull, leaving brain, blood and bone fragments in the pillow.

Not as bad as the pillow of Duria, aged 12, killed by a tank shell fired at a Gaza hospital though.

anotherlevel · 02/02/2024 13:38

Sky News - Israel are behaving like terrorists.

www.instagram.com/reel/C214MnxIPv0/?igsh=OTloZGlzZWN5NjR2

Parkingt111 · 10/02/2024 18:57

"Under international humanitarian law, killing a defenceless injured patient who is being treated in a hospital amounts to a war crime," the U.N. experts said in a statement, referring to Basel Al-Ghazzawi, a patient being treated for injuries it said were caused by an Israeli air strike.

"By disguising themselves as seemingly harmless, protected medical personnel and civilians, the Israeli forces also prima facie committed the war crime of perfidy, which is prohibited in all circumstances," they added, calling for Israel to conduct an investigation.

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