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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Eliminate Hamas……At any the cost ?

498 replies

Itoosurvive · 24/01/2024 20:55

Israel’s aim is to eliminate Hamas’ fighters.

So far it has cost 25,000 Palestinian lives.
Approximately 300 members of the IDF have been killed.
According to US intelligence (Rad 4 news 18.00 21-1-2024) between 20% and 30% of Hamas' fighters have been killed.
Approximately 65% of buildings have been destroyed.

So, the IDF is about a quarter of the way through the task they have been set.
The following question is directed at anyone who supports the current campaign to remove Hamas.

When does the loss of life become great enough to call a halt to the operation, or should it carry on until Hamas is eliminated, regardless of the cost?

edit, Title should read "At any cost"

OP posts:
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20
ProfessorPipsqueak · 02/02/2024 22:46

stomachameleon · 02/02/2024 22:06

@ProfessorPipsqueak the arrogance of saying you know better than those who actually live there. It would be funny if it wasn't so damaging.

I don't know who this 'those who live there' is, I don't know who anyone on mumsnet is, that is why I will stick to properly researched sources when forming my views rather than hearsay from anonymous forum users. BTW the polls and studies are all carried out by people who live there in organisations/universities based there.

MercanDede · 03/02/2024 15:14

niceandnew · 02/02/2024 00:43

@HeidiInTheBigCity What a hate-filled radical post.

Israel is not looking to eradicate Palestinians. They are not aiming to kill babies and children and they most definitely are not out to kill animals. Just yesterday I saw a clip of soldiers giving dogs and cats water and food in Khan Younis.
Israel are fighting to get Hamas out of power and are determined to accomplish this and ensure their borders are once again secure.

And I'd like to point out that saying that Hamas is Amalek is just a turn of phrase to refer to all enemies of the Jewish people. It is not used to mean literally wiping out of a nation.
But I do agree with you that it is far from the most appropriate phrase for Netanyahu to use in this highly sensitive conflict.

Show quote history

They are not aiming to kill babies and children..

Some of them are.

I could post the audio clip of the 12 year old girl Laylan machine gunned to death by the IDF from a tank while on the phone to the ambulance service. Her last words were “they’re shooting at us…” followed by her screams cut off. Or the audio clip of her 6yr old sister, Hind, who survived the above and managed to answer the return calls, only to be crushed while on the phone with the ambulance services, when the same IDF tank decided to drive over it and crush the car with her in it. Her last words were “It is moving.”

ChickHenLittle · 03/02/2024 15:29

@ProfessorPipsqueak Don't feel the need to be silenced because you don't live in Israel or the Palestinian territories.
As someone from the latter, I wouldn't say your post was inaccurate.

stomachameleon · 03/02/2024 17:03

@MercanDede is there any more information on that? From independent news sources? I can't find anything.

stomachameleon · 03/02/2024 17:50

@MercanDede thank you.

ProfessorPipsqueak · 03/02/2024 17:51

MercanDede · 03/02/2024 17:41

Show quote history

I just read the Washington Post article, it makes for horrific reading. The photo of little Hind with her graduation cap and gown, I have the same photos of my 2 from when they 'graduated' playschool. Just awful what that poor girl and the whole family went through.

Tripper79 · 03/02/2024 17:51

MercanDede · 03/02/2024 15:14

They are not aiming to kill babies and children..

Some of them are.

I could post the audio clip of the 12 year old girl Laylan machine gunned to death by the IDF from a tank while on the phone to the ambulance service. Her last words were “they’re shooting at us…” followed by her screams cut off. Or the audio clip of her 6yr old sister, Hind, who survived the above and managed to answer the return calls, only to be crushed while on the phone with the ambulance services, when the same IDF tank decided to drive over it and crush the car with her in it. Her last words were “It is moving.”

Show quote history

If this is true, this is just horrific. Knowingly crushing a young child to death. Absolutely horrific and indefensible.

MercanDede · 03/02/2024 18:33

Tripper79 · 03/02/2024 17:51

If this is true, this is just horrific. Knowingly crushing a young child to death. Absolutely horrific and indefensible.

Show quote history

Perhaps they thought she was already dead from her wounds. IDF is known to block ambulances until injured Palestinians die of their wounds.

The IDF knew she was alive and in there.

The PRCS had called the IDF and coordinated permission to go and rescue her when Hind was still on the phone talking. The IDF helped them geolocate where the car she was in was located.

The ambulance started out from only 1.8 miles away. She was on the phone talking for hours after they’d set off to rescue her until well after dark. She was cold, thirsty and kept asking for them to come and get her.

Babyboomtastic · 03/02/2024 18:55

ProfessorPipsqueak · 03/02/2024 17:51

I just read the Washington Post article, it makes for horrific reading. The photo of little Hind with her graduation cap and gown, I have the same photos of my 2 from when they 'graduated' playschool. Just awful what that poor girl and the whole family went through.

Show quote history

Thanks for the links. I can't see anything about poor Hind's car being crushed. Do your have a link for this please? I've had a look online and can only see that she's still considered missing. I'd like to still have hope, though it feels futile right now.

MercanDede · 03/02/2024 19:07

Babyboomtastic · 03/02/2024 18:55

Thanks for the links. I can't see anything about poor Hind's car being crushed. Do your have a link for this please? I've had a look online and can only see that she's still considered missing. I'd like to still have hope, though it feels futile right now.

Show quote history

There is no link to that detail. There is only the audio clip with her last words saying of the tank “It’s moving” before all contact is lost. 😞 afraid I have deduced the most likely connection between the tank right next to the car moving and losing Hind so abruptly and finally is the tank going over the car.

stomachameleon · 03/02/2024 19:22

only to be crushed while on the phone with the ambulance services,

So there is no evidence that happened?

HeidiInTheBigCity · 03/02/2024 20:37

stomachameleon · 03/02/2024 19:22

only to be crushed while on the phone with the ambulance services,

So there is no evidence that happened?

Without meaning to sound callous: does it even matter?!

FWIW, I mean on an individual level, absolutely, of course it does! Crushing a human to death is an absolutely horrible thing, and whosoever takes that fateful decision is ... I have no idea what words to use for such people!

That said, on an individual level, I have not seen the evidence for the crushin in this particular case. Mostly "still missing" (the girl Hind and their crew) from the Red Crescent.

But also: the IDF have crushed people to death, knowingly! Or do you think they bomb buildings until they collapse under the illusion that people inside them, generally speaking, just happily walk out of the rubble?

Also; Rachel Corrie was deliberately crushed to death some 20 years ago now. Numerous investigations have been performed over this, and, to quote her mother: "the story changed, and it changed, and it changed". But every independent assessment came to the conclusion that, in her high-visibility vest, she must have been visible.

Realistically speaking, from what I know about the incident in question: little Hind and the Red Crescent crew may well be dead. We do not know. But, in an overarching sense: any circumstances in which medics go out to try and rescue a child and neither them nor the child are heard from again should be ... not a case to question whether an army might be less horrible than "maximum" but "absolutely horrifying in its own right".

anotherlevel · 03/02/2024 20:44

HeidiInTheBigCity · 03/02/2024 20:37

Without meaning to sound callous: does it even matter?!

FWIW, I mean on an individual level, absolutely, of course it does! Crushing a human to death is an absolutely horrible thing, and whosoever takes that fateful decision is ... I have no idea what words to use for such people!

That said, on an individual level, I have not seen the evidence for the crushin in this particular case. Mostly "still missing" (the girl Hind and their crew) from the Red Crescent.

But also: the IDF have crushed people to death, knowingly! Or do you think they bomb buildings until they collapse under the illusion that people inside them, generally speaking, just happily walk out of the rubble?

Also; Rachel Corrie was deliberately crushed to death some 20 years ago now. Numerous investigations have been performed over this, and, to quote her mother: "the story changed, and it changed, and it changed". But every independent assessment came to the conclusion that, in her high-visibility vest, she must have been visible.

Realistically speaking, from what I know about the incident in question: little Hind and the Red Crescent crew may well be dead. We do not know. But, in an overarching sense: any circumstances in which medics go out to try and rescue a child and neither them nor the child are heard from again should be ... not a case to question whether an army might be less horrible than "maximum" but "absolutely horrifying in its own right".

Show quote history

And to add to the Rachel Corrie’s story, Caterpillar and the British state spied on her grieving family and friends to protect Israel from accountability.

http://www.theolympian.com/news/local/article190041134.html

https://www.instagram.com/p/C25Dc7coSLH/?igsh=eHZsNXlmeHN4bWo2

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/p/C25Dc7coSLH/?igsh=eHZsNXlmeHN4bWo2

AdamRyan · 03/02/2024 20:52

More than 800 civil servants from the EU/US have written an open letter:

"What's really different here is we're not failing to prevent something, we're actively complicit. That is fundamentally different from any other situation I can recall," added the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68177357

A destroyed building in Gaza

Western officials in protest over Israel Gaza policy

More than 800 officials in the US and Europe have penned a letter calling for more pressure on Israel.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68177357

stomachameleon · 03/02/2024 21:03

@HeidiInTheBigCity I don't disagree with you but I am sure (as you are normally careful and considered about what you write) that we need to be careful about what we write as fact.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 03/02/2024 21:05

stomachameleon · 03/02/2024 21:03

@HeidiInTheBigCity I don't disagree with you but I am sure (as you are normally careful and considered about what you write) that we need to be careful about what we write as fact.

Yes ... we do!

Hence why I wrote "I have no information that would suggest that, in this particular case, the girl was crushed to death".

I think the "people being crushed to death under collapsing buildings" bit is ... horribly obvious by now.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 03/02/2024 21:19

stomachameleon · 03/02/2024 21:03

@HeidiInTheBigCity I don't disagree with you but I am sure (as you are normally careful and considered about what you write) that we need to be careful about what we write as fact.

But, knowing how often we disagree ...

I genuinely appreciate the statement that, according to you, I am "normally careful and considered".

There are posters on here - on both sides - whom I would say the same thing about. For pretty obvious reasons, we will clash "on substance" all the time. As, for that matter, do various supposed "experts", for equally obvious reasons!

I'm just not into disinformation. Neither on "40 beheaded babies" nor on "Biden is being blackmailed by AIPAC"

AdamRyan · 03/02/2024 22:22

I get the warm and fuzzies when i see people on opposite "sides" respecting each other. Flowers to you, ladies

AdamRyan · 03/02/2024 22:23

And I hate misinformation too. There is so much around

freethem · 04/02/2024 19:04

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

MercanDede · 05/02/2024 11:54

stomachameleon · 03/02/2024 19:22

only to be crushed while on the phone with the ambulance services,

So there is no evidence that happened?

The evidence is hearing it on the audio clip with Hind’s last words saying the tank was moving before being cut off and the disappearance of the ambulance crew sent to her…..no. Doubtful an IDF tank driver would stop, get out, and post a selfie with a crushed car in the background though if that is what you are looking for as evidence.

Lanabigbanana · 05/02/2024 16:58

AdamRyan · 03/02/2024 22:23

And I hate misinformation too. There is so much around

Well, I am sure you have heard the phrase “In war, truth is the first casualty.”
― Aeschylus

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