Eliminate Hamas……At any the cost ?

[Itoosurvive]

Israel’s aim is to eliminate Hamas’ fighters.

So far it has cost 25,000 Palestinian lives.
Approximately 300 members of the IDF have been killed.
According to US intelligence (Rad 4 news 18.00 21-1-2024) between 20% and 30% of Hamas' fighters have been killed.
Approximately 65% of buildings have been destroyed.

So, the IDF is about a quarter of the way through the task they have been set.
The following question is directed at anyone who supports the current campaign to remove Hamas.

When does the loss of life become great enough to call a halt to the operation, or should it carry on until Hamas is eliminated, regardless of the cost?

edit, Title should read "At any cost"

Do you ever accept you're wrong?

Do you?

Yes frequently. But you clearly don't and you haven't followed both sides of the the hostage negotiations

In summary you are

Wrong about Hamas never offering a ceasefire
Wrong about Hamas turning down a proposal before it was offered
Wrong about Hamas not being capable of negotiating

Off to do something useful now

If only IDF would return the hostages they took and surrender.

easy these words aren’t they ?

Hamas has offered many times to return all hostages for the return of theirs too.
Israel refused, clearly not caring about their own people
The war goes on.

This.

Why on earth would anybody accept an 8 week pause in the bombing ? That is not a ceasefire. Then what, hostages returned, no withdrawal of troops and the killing starts again, no release of Palestinian hostages, no permanent ceasefire and now they have lost their bargaining chip. It’s not a balanced deal really is it ? Did you really expect them to be that stupid ?

Hamas have been clear for a while now, a permanent ceasefire, withdrawal of troops and they would release ALL the hostages in a prisoner swap. Netanyahu was not interested.

I recall a post here on MN by a pro Israel supporter defiantly arguing that Israeli children were more important than Palestinian children.
The post was removed, which was the right move but those who read it cannot undo that shock.

Hamas have been clear for a while now, a permanent ceasefire, withdrawal of troops and they would release ALL the hostages in a prisoner swap. Netanyahu was not interested.

So the cost of the ceasefire is that Hamas is left in situ in Gaza? And that hundreds of known terrorists are freed back into Gaza?
Sinwar himself was released as part of a prisoner swap and the result was the October attack.

As much as I also want to see a ceasefire, I just can't removetely envisage how any long-term peace could come from that.

It’s also worth pointing out @Bells3032 that a ceasefire in the eyes of Israel is not an actual ceasefire
The IDF continued to kill, arrest, bomb and bulldoze the West Bank where Palestinians live.
Of course they would want a ceasefire they can relocate all their men and machinery elsewhere where they continue their massacre

Well Hamas' idea of a ceasefire is to continue sending rockets indiscriminately into Israel whilst planning another October 7th. They have said over and over that they will do it again given half a chance so why should Israel give them the chance.

A ceasefire will always be temporary. it won't be long til this happens again and then what? @Livinginanotherworld your username is rather apt. Israel has not taken innocent civilians from their beds like Hamas then raped, tortured and paraded them through the streets. They have arrested people who have committed crimes including rape, murder and attempted murder. These are the people that Hamas demands back in return for babies.

I would love to see a peace but that's only going to happen when Hamas stops planning to eradicate Israel as a whole. You can't have a ceasefire where both sides are constantly aware the other side will break it and murder their civilians at any minute.

What does Israel get out of a ceasefire once the hostages are released other than allowing Hamas to regroup, rebuild their tunnels and smuggle more weapons in before another attack?

You mean as opposed to Israel eradicating all the Palestinians and wipe it it off the map
The image is from a news article regarding Netanyahus proposals at a UN meeting in September 2023!!!
**

Look they're saying it loud and clear.

www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/2/2/outrage-over-what-gaza-could-be-like-propaganda-video

You mean as opposed to Israel eradicating all the Palestinians and wipe it it off the map

No, definitely not as opposed to that.
Just a chance for Gaza to have had better future governance, as one possible positive to come out of all the horrific loss and death of the last few months. The thought of it just settling down to the existing status quo, and all happening again in a few years time, is bleak beyond imaginging.

Israel has not taken innocent civilians from their beds like Hamas then raped, tortured and paraded them through the streets.
Well, we don't know that as Israel refuses the international press to enter Gaza and have shot Palestinian journalists. I wonder why. To add to that, the IDF uses bombs, starvation and withdrawing of the basics to sustain life.
They have arrested people who have committed crimes including rape, murder and attempted murder. These are the people that Hamas demands back in return for babies.
Children as young as 5 have been arrested. I wasn't aware that they were rapists or murderers.
I would love to see a peace but that's only going to happen when Hamas stops planning to eradicate Israel as a whole. You can't have a ceasefire where both sides are constantly aware the other side will break it and murder their civilians at any minute.
I am very confused because you support the Israeli government but then you accuse them of murdering civilians. Very strange!

But Netanyahu wants to wipe it off the map!
Not allow it better future Governance
He told the UN that last September
Thats not his plan

I strongly disagree with Netanyahu and I hope that the US and other international allies, plus domestic pressure, mean that this isn't the post-war way forward.

While this notion honours you, really, the thing is: it is not only Netanyahu. Also not only extreme-right ministers such as Ben Gvir or Smotrich.

The thing is: anti-Palestinian (not only anti-Hamas) sentiment that would make us all recoil in horror in any other context is just pretty mainstream in Israel!

You will see it in the casual use of "the Arabs" referring to Palestinians (language that completely denies Palestinians a distinct identity). You will find it in polls that indicate that some 60% of Israelis oppose letting any humanitarian aid into Gaza. You will see it when a supposedly moderate Israeli politician - specifically preseident Herzog, once upon a time president of the centre-left Labour party - is personally quoted by the judges in the ICJ as evidence for "genocidal rhetoric". You see it when something like the "re-settle Gaza" conference recently is not only allowed to take place - without condemnation from the powers that be - but literally a good chunk of the government and parliament attend.

You could, for that matter, see it even 20 years ago, when [American] S. and myself were left alone but H. - the only Palestinian in our little group walking through an occupied city - was just randomly "roughed up a little", made to undress, to kneel, to take some mild "being spat on and beaten" when we happened upon an ad hoc checkpoint.

Once you see it, the casual, brutal dehumanisation of Palestinians, you cannot ever unsee it!

And: yes, it is a problem. Because it makes the notion of "justice" one million times more difficult. And without justice, there will never be peace!

I agree with all of this. There doesn't seem to be much acceptance of the fact that a lot of Israelis feel negatively(to put it politely) towards Palestinians. It is mainstream. This ideology won't disappear if Netanyahu does. You only have to look at polls of Israelis to see that the majority don't think 'Arabs' should even be allowed to live in the same apartment blocks as them and this is pre Oct 7. I understand that this kind of thing is seen as distasteful in the West and supporters of Israel would rather not acknowledge that part of society but it exists and it can't be ignored when talking about life post war.

@brokenbutterflymagnum of course they haven't.

No but I don't see how this will change the well documented ingrained racism that is pervasive in Israeli society? I will take studies and polls over someone on mumsnet who is biased towards Israel saying well I was there and I didn't see any racism or I know people who live there and they aren't racist.

You do realise there are frequent suicide bombers/ car/ bus bombs placed in Israel by Palestinians? You may be wary of them if you lived there too. But as to the apartments, the last time I was in Tel Aviv my friend's apartments has about 50/50 by race Jews/Arabs. Everyone got on, the "Arabs" were also Israeli and were loyal to Israel.

@ProfessorPipsqueak the arrogance of saying you know better than those who actually live there. It would be funny if it wasn't so damaging.

I do not know if @ProfessorPipsqueak has ever been to Israel.

I have, though, and my Palestinian ex-husband used to work in Israel from his teens to his early 20s. He speaks fluent Hebrew!

Nothing compares to "how I was treated, as someone who read as "just a tourist" when out and about on my own vs. "how we were treated - especially how HE was treated, but also: the level of silent contempt I got" when I was in Jerusalem, in Tel Aviv, in Netanya with him!

I do not even speak that language (well, I can count to ten and ask for and understand directions, but that is about the lot of it). The hospitality I experienced on my own as opposed to the the treatment I got when in the company of a Palestinian man ... that is all "something else" level.

... and, for the record: I am white British. Blonde, even. And my ex-husband was never affiliated with any political faction.