Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

It’s not for the protesters to decide how it happens - the objective for most is trying to put pressure on our own government to speak against what it happening in Gaza and/or express their own outrage.

A lot of the protesters are seeing graphic images and videos of dead children on a near constant basis - it’s very hard to not have a strong feelings about this.

People want less dead children. It’s pretty simple actually.

This 👆 just less dead civilians! Kids or adults! . Let’s not forget when men or women are killed that leaves orphaned children.
The whole world needs to call for and help negotiate a ceasefire. I’m ashamed of the UK Government.

Do you not understand that in a ceasefire both sides cease?

I don't know who should negotiate- presumably the same or similar parties involved in the negotiations for the last "humanitarian pause" (I find that terminology pathetic).

And as previous posters have said, we are witnessing absolute carnage on levels that are just unbelievable. Women and children are being killed at levels we've never seen before in modern warfare and the population is trapped with basically no access to medical care, food, water or proper shelter.

Who wouldn't want that to stop?

And the hostages returned safely.

the objective for most is trying to put pressure on our own government to speak against what it happening in Gaza and/or express their own outrage
Indeed. Enough of unconditionally supporting Israel no matter what it does.
It won’t make any difference to Israel anyway. Most people will end up being driven out of Gaza and that will be that.
With respect to supporting the hostages I understand there have been marches in support of Israel to (admittedly not as many).
It would be nice if everyone could march together in support of civilians and both sides. I may be wrong but I think the pro Israel camp would tolerate criticism of Israel’s leaders if they could be convinced there is no hostility to the Jewish population as a whole.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved?

——

can you tell me how the supporters of Israel think it can be achieved? I still haven’t seen a plan that benefits both countries in the same way and not more one than the other one

@ConnieCounter "Do you not understand that in a ceasefire both sides cease?"

I do, but it appears Hamas does not want a ceasefire. “I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders, and that the Arab world will stand with us,” Taher El-Nounou, a Hamas media adviser, told The (New York) Times.

@Fussandmisery "I may be wrong but I think the pro Israel camp would tolerate criticism of Israel’s leaders if they could be convinced there is no hostility to the Jewish population as a whole"

I would agree with you, but as anti-semitic attacks/incidents have soared since that attacks on 7th Oct, I don't think that will happen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67085625

Hamas has called for a ceasefire repeatedly though. Here's some text from last month on the positions of the parties. Israel doesn't want a ceasefire so that's your main stumbling block.

There remains a huge gulf between the two sides' publicly stated positions on any halt to fighting. Hamas rejects any further temporary pause and says it will discuss only a permanent ceasefire. Israel has ruled that out and says it will agree only limited humanitarian pauses until Hamas is defeated.

"Hamas' stance remains: they don't have a desire for humanitarian pauses. Hamas wants a complete end to the Israeli war on Gaza," a Palestinian official said.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu repeated that the war would end only with Hamas eradicated, all hostages freed and Gaza posing no more threat to Israel.

"Whoever thinks we will stop is detached from reality...All Hamas terrorists, from the first to the last, are dead men walking," he said in a statement on Wednesday.
^^
Israel has faced increasing pressure from its Western allies to curb a military onslaught in Gaza that has laid waste to much of the densely populated coastal enclave.

Hamas leader visits Egypt amid intensive talks on new ceasefire | Reuters

Really?

I certainly do.

Russia and Ukraine are at war. Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Somalia, Libya, the Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Myanmar, Colombia, and Mali are currently in civil wars.

Yemen is the world’s worst humanitarian crisis according to the U.N.

But I don't see anyone on the streets of London calling for a cessation of these hostilities.

It begs the question " do dead children only matter if Israelis are killing them"

So now posters have said what people are marching for you have gone on to whataboutery.

Ceasefires can lower the cost of aggression and cause more deaths in the long run, especially when conducted at the wrong time.

Thomas Sowell's 2014 article on the very issue is still highly relevant, so I'll leave it here:

https://eu.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/2014/08/02/thomas-sowell-cease-fires/13533171/

@ConnieCounter A cease-fire isn't as easy as it sounds -

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/12/22/israel-hamas-gaza-ceasefire-truce-pause-war/

Pretty sure (but I stand corrected) that the UK government is not supporting and arming any of those conflicts? People in the UK are marching to make their point to the UK government to call for a ceasefire but unfortunately they are being largely ignored. I think the most recent poll in the UK stood at 70% in favour of a ceasefire.

I can’t work out if you actually want a ceasefire or you don’t? 🤔 If you do then why would you object to people marching for that?

That is an opinion piece from 10 years ago with nothing of substance or evidence in it

Ditto

I disagree.

Do you think dead babies in Yemen don't matter?

Or matter less than Palestinian babies?

UK built weapons sold to Saudi Arabia have been used in Yemen.

Yes, it's an opinion piece. It even states so. But it's not insubstantial.

Ceasefire demands can and do make conflicts last longer.

That wasn't the point of this thread though was it?

The Center For Security Studies has a pretty good 2022 article on the issue of ceasefires. Reasons are multifaceted including the following:

"Ceasefires are often used to achieve political or military objectives that are incompatible with a peaceful resolution of the conflict. “Parties to a conflict use these pauses for instance to rearm or consolidate territorial control over an area,” Clayton says."

Indeed, this is a well known tactic of terrorist groups such as Hamas, PIRA and many others.

It's very reasonable, valid and normal for there to be great scepticism when a terrorist group calls for one as part of its own PR propaganda.

Anyway, link here:

https://css.ethz.ch/en/center/CSS-news/2022/11/why-conflict-parties-cease-fighting.html

OP I do think that civil war gets different responses than one country being obliterated by another. I don't make the rules.

Russia/Ukraine had and still has loads of attention, outrage, marches etc and the UK bloody opened their doors to Ukrainians, did you sleep through that? Or are Israelis just untouchable in your mind?

@MissyB1 "I can’t work out if you actually want a ceasefire or you don’t? 🤔 If you do then why would you object to people marching for that?"

What I want is largely irrelevant.

However, I can't see people marching all over London will make one iota of difference.

Did the "Ban the Bomb" marches make any difference? Poll Tax Riots ? Just Stop Oil ? Anti-lockdown Protests.
There's your answer.

To date, the costs of policing the Palestine supporters rallies is £17million paid for by central government. That's mine, yours and everyone else's taxes.
People on these boards are the first to complain if they are impacted by the government having no funds for x,y, or z.

Pressure can be brought to bear on governments without squandering tax payers money.
However, if someone can tell me how marching through London can bring about a ceasefire in a country over 2,000 miles away, I'm all ears.