Documenting the horror that is Hamas part two

[stomachameleon]

Part two of the thread
@25milesfromhome were where we?

I did not have to join the argument I found, that is true. But since I know the correct answer, why not share it? I cannot help it was not the answer certain posters wanted to hear. That is the only reason why it hasn’t quickly finished, you should be directing your ire towards Cat from Japan who has dragged it out far longer than it needed to.

If posting relevant excerpts from a judgement by the Supreme Court of Israel, and the ICRC definitions is “looking like an apologist for terrorists” you should reconsider your view.

It makes you look like you're an apologist for terrorists because you appear to be trying to argue that something they did was legal.

Why on earth would anyone bother arguing that?

Particularly when 'that' is 'abduct teenaged girls'.

I don’t know, as I said, I didn’t start the argument. My aim was to finish the argument by posting the facts in law as posters seemed to be trading pot shots with zero substantiation and no one bothering to look up the legal facts of the matter to put it to rest. My intentions were in the right place, I can’t help what the legal facts are. They are what they are.

Except that these are adult women in the armed forces captured during an armed conflict from a military base. It’s not illegal to take POWs because they happen to be young and female.

You can rage against the law if you like. A law can be immoral.
It is what it is though.

People argue the detail of law when side being spoken about on this thread isn't following on so many things

Yet apparently some old example that isn't relevant or a small section of a bigger more complex document is evidence that some young women/girls are POWs.

Not sure that counts even if we were to believe it true. Hamas is not treating them like POWs should be treating according to law. Therefore why should we view them or talk about them as POWs

Frankly this is probably the most ridiculous whilst being vile arguments on mumsnet tonight

I'm not 'raging against the law'

I'm saying that the people who seem to care whether these girls are IDF or not are not actually interested in the legalities of the situation, but merely saying therefore that they got what was coming to them.

So it is better to say 'who gives a toss if their abduction was legal or not, because Hamas certainly don't, and we should be worried about their fate particularly because they are IDF, not using it as an argument to say that Hamas were justified in abducting them'.

This

We should talk about POWs as POWs because to deny them that elevated status would be wrong. Women have fought for decades to serve in the armed forces, yes Israel conscripts, but we do not know if all these women are serving willingly or no. Either way, they have put their lives on the line to defend Israel from Hamas. They deserve recognition for the fact of their service, bravery and sacrifice as they stood between Hamas and other civilians on Oct 7th.

They shouldn’t be reduced to ‘abducted teenage girls’ which is infantilising language that reduces serving in a war as a adult member of the armed forces to being no different from being the victim of a child kidnapper.

We would never speak of young men serving in the military taken prisoner in such a fashion- ‘abducted teenage boys’

Men are heroes, and given medals when they are POWs. But women, oh, they’re just abducted teenage girls and we obsess over their sexual purity being polluted. POWs of both sexes end up tortured, beaten, raped. It is ugly and horrific what happens to them. But at least we should respect female POWs the way we do male ones.

I am a bit emotive about this as a female veteran of the War in Afghanistan.

Have a good rest of your evening.

Well which is it ffs ? You said a Jewish version of mumsnet, I don’t know that forum I’m not Jewish, but I don’t like the idea of my posts copied to another forum. It’s all very underhand.

You (or if we believe someone has messaged you rather than you just saying that someone has) are the only person saying messages are being copied to put on another forum

Nobody else is saying this because it has not happened. If people put deleted posts on another thread then mumsnet would likely ban the person. Non deleted posts equally have not been posted on any threads or boards I am on either

Goodness knows if you are just making this stuff up in your head or someone feeding you nonsense but is a you problem not an us problem

I am a bit emotive about this as a female veteran of the War in Afghanistan.

Thank you for your service.

And I understand how you would not want to see female soldiers diminished.

However these are also teenaged girls and they are conscripts. You are seeing them as professional soldiers, I am seeing them as the same as the kids I teach.

You wish to say that they were taken prisoners in a war, however they were taken by a terrorist organisation as part of a terror attack where those terrorists raped, tortured and murdered women, men and children and also abducted a large number of civilians.

To separate those two events into 'soldiers taken prisoners in war by the enemy army' and 'civilians taken hostage by terrorists' when it is the same people taking them, and the same event that led to them being taken seems to be trying to lend Hamas a credibility that they certainly don't deserve. You say it's because you want to give those girls more credibility. Fair enough, but you are legitimising the actions of Hamas, and others are right to object to that.

It would seem to be that your service in Afghanistan is a completely different situation where the lines would be much clearer.

As far as I can see you are the only person that is talking about another forum

The conversation about the CST and moderator training happened on another board not another forum

Plus please explain why Jewish posters talking about antisemitism training and seeking help from the CST for mumsnet moderators is underhand?

Frankly you do talk bizarre sometimes

@Hellenika literally no one is obsessing over their sexual purity. Just plain concern and worry that there are reports from released hostages that they are being repeatedly sexually assaulted. As women with the added risk of pregnancy, it is a whole added level of psychological torment.

I just can’t fathom why you would character assassinate posters who are concerned about legalities in such a way to justify your thinking it is better to ignore legalities solely on the basis that Hamas doesn’t care, so why should we care?

Of course we should care about things that Hamas doesn’t care about! Why? Because we are not terrorists. We think (or should think) that international law has meaning and should be respected.

The treatment the POWs are due depends on their legal status as POWs. The treatment they are most likely getting also will be influenced by the fact they are POWs. The enemy will interrogate POWs to try and get military intelligence from them; it then follows that these women are likely being tortured and sexual assault/rape is frequently used in torture. This won’t be perfunctory rape for the rapists pleasure, it will be violent, sadistic rape to destroy, break, injure.

This is all relevant to discussing their probable fate/treatment while held by Hamas as they are much more likely to be treated far worse than the civilian female hostages were. They won’t be treated like ‘abducted teenage girls.’

Being a POW puts you in more danger, and at higher risk of ill treatment.

Ok, I really must log out.

I've heard it all now. So it's degrading to be classed as a POW rather than a serving soldier!!! I think labels are the least of the problem of those poor girls. How on earth is this being allowed to carry on ffs. This person is just taking the piss and it really isn't funny.

Thanks for the recognition. However,

No, I am not legitimising the actions of Hamas by calling the captured female soldiers POWs.
How dare you. You aren’t calling me out on anything, you are repeatedly casting unfounded aspersions. The law doesn’t say what you wish, so instead of engaging on the legal text and admitting what it says in black and white, you just say I am “legitimising Hamas”.

They are POWs, I have already posted the relevant legal facts showing that is what they are. It’s not what I wish. It’s not an opinion. It is legal fact.

What you see as differences or unclear lines are irrelevant to the question of who is a POW. It is perfectly clear. It doesn’t matter if they are professional soldiers or conscripted soldiers, they are still combatants. It doesn’t matter that they are 18-19 year old female soldiers, they are still combatants.

Sorry but the young men dieing or taken prisoner in this conflict to me are boys. Some as young as 18. I am a mother of adult children and work in a secondary school with a sixth form. These 18/19 year olds are children to myself and many others. You may not see them as teenagers but they are and barely out of high school. Sorry if I don't agree any military service you may have had makes you an expert on how to view 18/19 year olds.

I can see your point about POWs but to me it is flawed because Hamas won't ever follow rules of war. Some of the civilian population have abused, killed, kidnapped and held hostage these girls too. So most of what you say is pretty irrelevant in this situation

Seen as some things got bured earlier, possibly on purpose but who knows. I will post some of it again

"We know the girls held in Gaza who were raped and might be pregnant, that’s our last chance for them to get abortions, before it’s too late.

Mirav Svirsky, the sister of Itay who is held in Gaza with 136 hostages for 3 months."

https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1744454045698543713

"The growing body of evidence about reported sexual violence is particularly harrowing," two UN-appointed independent experts on torture and executions - Alice Jill Edwards and Morris Tidball-Binz - said in a statement today.

The statement referred to allegations of sexual torture, including rape and gang rape as well as mutilations and gunshots to genital areas.

"These acts constitute gross violations of international law, amounting to war crimes which, given the number of victims and the extensive premeditation and planning of the attacks, may also qualify as crimes against humanity," the experts said.

"Each and every victim deserves to be recognized, regardless of their ethnicity, religion, or sex, and our role is to be their voice," they added. (Reuters)

https://twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1744427540285112781

https://www.timesofisrael.com/on-gaza-civilian-evacuation-road-idf-uncovers-largest-hamas-rocket-factory-to-date/

They have found a rocket factory where they produced the rockets with a range of up to 75km. I am well within that range from Gaza. There was a barrage aimed at central Israel tonight at 5 ish tonight, no sirens in my area, but could hear the booms from here and see the interceptions. Probably same sort of rockets.

Amar Mansour (civilian) killed in a shooting terror attack on Sunday. He had Israeli license plates on his car. Three people arrested as suspects in the attack. https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-palestinian-doctors-and-a-nurse-arrested-as-suspects-in-deadly-west-bank-shooting/ I am going to document regular terror attacks as well, if that is ok @stomachameleon ? If not, maybe another thread can be started?

https://stand4israel.net/media/t/1_t8x2tc73

No, I am not legitimising the actions of Hamas by calling the captured female soldiers POWs.

You are literally arguing its legality. How is spending an inordinate amount of time arguing that what Hamas did there is legal anything other than legitimising it? That's the definition of legitimise.

How dare you. You aren’t calling me out on anything, you are repeatedly casting unfounded aspersions. The law doesn’t say what you wish, so instead of engaging on the legal text and admitting what it says in black and white, you just say I am “legitimising Hamas”.

See above.

This is all relevant to discussing their probable fate/treatment while held by Hamas as they are much more likely to be treated far worse than the civilian female hostages

No one has disputed that the girls will be treated worse because they are IDF, in fact many have raised it. None of the others needed to legally define them as POWs to spot this.

I think the point of what's happening over on the "secret thread" is that some posts will be passed on to an agency that helps the actual police understand how big of a problem antisemitism is as well as how much support Hamas has by British posters online. Nothing to do with the thought and speech police 🙄