Page 5 | Opinion piece in newspaper -RICHARD LITTLEJOHN: The only purpose of these endless marches is to intimidate British Jews.

floodlightonwhatisright · 2023-12-20T16:23:57+00:00

[[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12878659/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-marches-intimidate-British-Jews-tolerate-hatred-streets.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12878659/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-marches-intimidate-British-Jews-tolerate-hatred-streets.html]] He raises some interesting ideas.

noblegiraffe · 21/12/2023 20:06

The real problem is Jews feeling anxious when I don't think they should.

Limeandsodaontherocks · 21/12/2023 20:21

braticus · 21/12/2023 19:59

@Limeandsodaontherocks "Jews are in a minority ( numbers wise) and I do think the marches are causing real anxiety for them. ( Even without the generational trauma of the holocaust) It is alarming that some people won’t acknowledge that."

But why are the marches causing anxiety? The marches have literally nothing to do with Jewish people. They're about stopping the genocide of the Palestinians. Lots of Jewish people attend. They clearly don't feel unsafe/anxious.

I think they’re causing anxiety for a number of reasons but as I’m not Jewish it’s not really for me to say.
However- As a non Jew / I’m not happy that people on the marches are not challenging the chanting etc. I’m not happy that posters of hostages have been ripped down, I’m not happy that you’re using the word genocide so carelessly.

braticus · 21/12/2023 20:22

@noblegiraffe I'm asking so I can better understand. What do you think a good solution would be to help ease these anxieties?

Ketzele · 21/12/2023 20:30

braticus, are you completely unaware of the huge rise in antisemitism in the UK?

The fact that some Jews go on these marches is not the point you think it is. I understand why they are there - they include family and friends of mine - but they are actually not the people who are bearing the brunt. Those are the visible orthodox Jews who are the most attacked.

Second are Jewish students at universities, who are in a very hostile climate exacerbated by these marches. And indeed those of us who work in left of centre workplaces: I know I am keeping my head down.

I don't think the marches should be banned and I don't think most marchers are actively anti semitic. I'm sure I could go and join them and not get any hassle. But what would happen if I went carrying a banner calling out Hamas as well as Netanyahu? What would happen if I challenged people carrying antisemitic banners? Why aren't more of the 'nice' marchers challenging those banners?

I think we all know that the answer is it is far, far easier to go with the flow and pretend not to see, pretend not to hear, act all gobsmacked when Jews complain. "Well, I'm really sorry if you are offended, but I think you'll find that's a You problem".

Limeandsodaontherocks · 21/12/2023 20:45

noblegiraffe · 21/12/2023 20:06

The real problem is Jews feeling anxious when I don't think they should.

“The real problem is Jews feeling anxious when I don't think they should.”

Noblegiraffe’s got it covered.
No need to worry.

Dulra · 21/12/2023 20:53

If the marches were banned would British Jews feel safer? I don't think they would because I just think the antisemites will still be antisemitic but now very angry antisemites.

The right to protest is a very important right that is not enjoyed by all across the globe so needs to be protected. The marches need to continue

Limeandsodaontherocks · 21/12/2023 21:01

Dulra · 21/12/2023 20:53

If the marches were banned would British Jews feel safer? I don't think they would because I just think the antisemites will still be antisemitic but now very angry antisemites.

The right to protest is a very important right that is not enjoyed by all across the globe so needs to be protected. The marches need to continue

I don’t want the marches banned because that’s a dangerous precedent. I just want people like you to acknowledge that some on the March are anti semitic and it’s up to all of us to call it out.

Ketzele · 21/12/2023 21:08

Dulra, I don't want the marches banned. I want those who organise and attend them to put their house in order.

Dulra · 21/12/2023 21:17

@Limeandsodaontherocks @Ketzele
Agreed. Can there be collaboration between key leaders amongst the Jewish community, the police and the march organisers to ensure any hate talk or antisemitism is dealt with? Just because people have the right to protest doesn't mean they can do and say what they like.

plusjamais · 21/12/2023 21:34

the problem is I think that some people/organisations pollute the issue and to my mind do the cause of objecting to anti semitism no good whatsoever. Seems to me they are actually enemies of peace/Jewish folk everywhere.
The merest bit of research/listening for example shows that the "Campaign against Antisemitism" is essentially a front with a clear political agenda. Shame on them.

The antiracism charity Campaign Against Antisemitism calling out a rancid case of antisemitism here and (rightly) reporting it to the police. Although the PP who demonstrably knows nothing about CAS has decided they're the enemies of peace and a front with a clear political agenda.

Yellow star marked on a shop in a London borough with a large Jewish community. But I'm sure someone will whizz by in a minute to tell me Jews shouldn't be worried and it's all in our heads actually, and the protests have in no way enabled a climate that has made this very far from being an isolated incident.

(And no, I don't want the protests banned).

https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1737860163988808020

braticus · 21/12/2023 21:35

Dulra · 21/12/2023 21:17

@Limeandsodaontherocks @Ketzele
Agreed. Can there be collaboration between key leaders amongst the Jewish community, the police and the march organisers to ensure any hate talk or antisemitism is dealt with? Just because people have the right to protest doesn't mean they can do and say what they like.

That definitely seems like a reasonable way to try to deal with things.

plusjamais · 21/12/2023 21:38

Dulra · 21/12/2023 21:17

@Limeandsodaontherocks @Ketzele
Agreed. Can there be collaboration between key leaders amongst the Jewish community, the police and the march organisers to ensure any hate talk or antisemitism is dealt with? Just because people have the right to protest doesn't mean they can do and say what they like.

I agree this would be a good way forward, although I'm not sure it hasn't been tried already? There definitely needs to be some way of working towards a united goal - calling for peace for instance, which would need to include visible denouncements of Hamas as well as the Israeli Govt.

plusjamais · 21/12/2023 21:40

Limeandsodaontherocks · 21/12/2023 20:45

“The real problem is Jews feeling anxious when I don't think they should.”

Noblegiraffe’s got it covered.
No need to worry.

Show quote history

If you're being sarcastic that's unfair - Giraffe's the first to call out antisemitism.

Livinginanotherworld · 21/12/2023 21:40

stomachameleon · 20/12/2023 21:48

@Livinginanotherworld you should complain!

It might be Islamophobic and what I would consider hate speech, but we all have a right to free speech, I feel disgust at his sad little views, but not his right to have them.

Livinginanotherworld · 21/12/2023 21:44

Desertrose2023 · 21/12/2023 07:59

Richard LITTLEJOHN is known for his misogyny, Islamophobia and homophobia. He has zero moral authority to talk about anyone stirring up hatred and intimidation. He is himself looking to stir up hatred with this article. The ongoing protests are optically unhelpful to our government, who have supported Israel’s military actions, and the Daily Fail is conveniently trying to demonize the protesters on their behalf.

no one is dismissing that British Jews feel anxious and fearful at this time. Plenty of Muslims also feel the same. It’s not just antisemitism that’s shot up since this conflict started. There have been Muslims attacked here and in the US (a six year stabbed to death, 3 teenagers shot for wearing keffiyehs and plenty of other examples of harassment which I’ve seen online and in news reports). It’s not right that anyone Jewish, or Muslim should be experiencing this.

However, to say that the purpose of these marches is just to intimidate British Jews is highly offensive. It accuses those who march essentially of just being motivated by racism - or being gullible do gooders manipulated into racism. This simply isn’t true. People are protesting because they want a ceasefire and they want Palestinians to have basic rights and freedoms. We live in a democracy where people have the right to do that. Instead of trying to demonize people for expressing their political beliefs and exercising their legitimate right to protest, the focus should be on ensuring the tiny minority found holding offensive placards be caught and swiftly punished and for the government to actively support the swift resolution of this horrendous conflict for the benefit of everyone.

Edited

👏👏👏

Limeandsodaontherocks · 21/12/2023 21:44

plusjamais · 21/12/2023 21:40

If you're being sarcastic that's unfair - Giraffe's the first to call out antisemitism.

Show quote history

Apologies if that is the case .

FreshWinterMorning · 21/12/2023 21:47

I agree with him.

noblegiraffe · 21/12/2023 21:55

Limeandsodaontherocks · 21/12/2023 21:44

Apologies if that is the case .

Show quote history

Oh my comment was paraphrasing Braticus's post given that they spent the first half of this thread going on about how Jews shouldn't feel anxious about the marches because they're not antisemitic and then wittered on about "perceived antisemitism".

Livinginanotherworld · 21/12/2023 21:56

Itsalmostherenow · 21/12/2023 10:01

Try reading my post again. I never said these marches are full of anti semitism. I said there is a significant minority show hatred. I've not seen all marches all over the country, just some and those I've seen have a significant minority showing hatred. Go watch the London ones!

Edited

Show quote history

I’ve been to every big Saturday March in London since this started, I’ve marched with all cultures and people from all walks of life, I’ve made friends, I’ve felt comforted, I’ve cried and felt emotional. I’ve never seen any hatred, antisemitism, it has been an amazingly safe space and everyone I’ve spoken to has said the same.

There are minorities causing trouble everywhere, football matches, concerts, even the pub, of course the media are going to concentrate on those small pockets, but you couldn’t be further from the truth as to the reasons why people who have never protested before are coming out to have their voice listened to. We all just want the killing to stop.

bellac11 · 21/12/2023 21:59

braticus · 20/12/2023 21:52

@stomachameleon If Jewish people are genuinely afraid then I have sympathy for them. At the moment though, that fear is not more important than trying to stop the mass slaughter of Palestinians, which is why I believe the marches must continue.

British Jewish people in the UK?

People shouldnt have to fear in this country for their safety

What is happening in another country shouldnt impact on this country's citizens safety

Limeandsodaontherocks · 21/12/2023 22:07

noblegiraffe · 21/12/2023 21:55

Oh my comment was paraphrasing Braticus's post given that they spent the first half of this thread going on about how Jews shouldn't feel anxious about the marches because they're not antisemitic and then wittered on about "perceived antisemitism".

Show quote history

Oh yes. Sorry noblegiraffe I was speed reading and feeling cranky. I’m glad it was pointed out.

Livinginanotherworld · 21/12/2023 22:11

BigandBeefy · 21/12/2023 17:08

I agree. Marches are really important. If we ignore Israels actions we are setting a really dangerous precedent that leaves us all less safe. International laws are there for a reason. We have to make sure that Israel abide by them. Western powers not challenging obvious war crimes leaves us all open to war crimes. If governments won't call it out then the onus is on us to. When Russia declared war the world acted quickly and decisively, there was no question that what they were doing was wrong, they were isolated and sanctioned. The same needs to happen here or we are giving the green light to this happening again and next time who knows who it will be on the receiving end.

Show quote history

Hear hear

Livinginanotherworld · 21/12/2023 22:15

Dulra · 21/12/2023 21:17

@Limeandsodaontherocks @Ketzele
Agreed. Can there be collaboration between key leaders amongst the Jewish community, the police and the march organisers to ensure any hate talk or antisemitism is dealt with? Just because people have the right to protest doesn't mean they can do and say what they like.

There already is a lot of collaboration.

noblegiraffe · 21/12/2023 22:17

Limeandsodaontherocks · 21/12/2023 22:07

Oh yes. Sorry noblegiraffe I was speed reading and feeling cranky. I’m glad it was pointed out.

Show quote history

No worries, I should have signposted what I was intending a bit more clearly.

Walkaround · 21/12/2023 23:33

1dayatatime · 21/12/2023 19:17

@Walkaround

"@1dayatatime Do you have any links to show Netenyahu intends to do anything about the illegal settlement he has encouraged in the West Bank, or anything about negotiating a two state solution ever? If not, then I suggest that ceasing to flatten Gaza will do nothing to stop hostilities and Israel and Hamas will remain at “war” wherever Hamas is based. Terrorism will not cease to exist just because Israel shows it can behave despicably."

+++

So currently you have Hamas publicly committed to the destruction of Israel and Israel rejecting a two state solution.

I personally think that a two state solution and the removal of the West Bank settlements as the logical way forward but even if Israel agreed to a two state solution (which ironically the rejection of which is the one thing Israel and Hamas / Iran agree on) then Hamas (and Hezbollah and Iran) would continue to seek the destruction of Israel.

So sadly that leaves the only other outcome as "last man standing ".

@1dayatatime - I don’t think “last man standing” is a solution, though - certainly not for Israel in the Middle East, surrounded by so many countries that have Hamas equivalents looking to increase their support and for any excuse to join in, and so many Arab countries that may reconsider their grudging acceptance of the presence of Israel. Unless there is a two state solution, there is no defensible solution, and flattening Gaza doesn’t change that, it just creates more terrorists, more instability and more hate.