Israelis held hostage in Gaza - part 3

[StarbucksSmarterSister]

Part 3.

I hope they come home soon and there's no need for a part 4.

Hamas wanted a permanent ceasefire? Of course they did/do.

Yep. They want to stay in charge of Gaza. And that'll be lose/lose for everyone but Hamas, both Palestinians and Israelis.

Well apparently the Hamas changes to the US ceasefire proposal are unworkable. There's a surprise 😮 probably want to stay in charge. Poor Palestinians imagine more hamas for years to come. Dreadful

So the ceasefire deal will probably not work out.

Naturally because Hamas absolutely wants to survive militarily, politically AND socially in Gaza.

One expert has said before that Hamas has been playing games with all negotiations and they don't want to give up the only leverage they've got - hostages.

Without hostages, Hamas knows there's nothing to stop Israel going after them in future and nobody will ever buy that "Hamas is only interested in governing Gaza" line again. That line only works once.

Hamas wants a ceasefire that doesn't ultimately solve the problem in the long run and this would mean conflict in future which also equals more lives lost. Ceasefires at the wrong time can prolong conflict, unfortunately.

I think Biden and Netanyahu have also been playing games. And Netanyahu also is in this to keep himself going for as long as possible.

No he isn't.

@ScrollingLeaves agreed. Netanyahu has no intentions of ending this war anytime soon otherwise it would mean his demise.

Agreed. All the players in this have their own agendas and Netanyahu and Hamas both have motivation to spin things out as long as they can.

I see the thread for the 4 hostages rescued is full, so posting here.

"...But while the rescue of Argamani went smoothly, the task of rescuing the other three hostages on the third floor of the second building became complicated.
They were held in the home of Dr Ahmed al-Jamal, a medical doctor, who was a Hamas activist. His son, Abdullah, a journalist who had written for Al-Jazeera, was also staying in the apartment.
Some of the commandos used a ladder to enter directly into the room where the three hostages were held. This coincided with the entry of the rest of the force who came up the stairs from the main entrance of the building.
But Commander Arnon Zamora's team, which broke into the apartment at the head of the force, encountered massive fire from around thirty Hamas terrorists in the apartment They fired with machine guns, threw grenades and some even fired rocket-propelled grenade missiles at the surprised Israelis. This is how Arnon Zamora was killed. The fact of the presence of 30 terrorists in the apartment had not been known to the undercover teams who had reported the information about the hostages’ location back to Israel. It is assumed that the terrorists arrived at the apartment only that morning or the night before, to strengthen the guarding of the three hostages.
Nevertheless, the experienced Israeli commando fighters were not deterred by the deadly surprise and continued to fight the terrorists with determination at close range, joined by the other fighters who were waiting outside the apartment. The three hostages had to hide in the bathroom of the apartment, protected by several Israeli fighters, during the battle...After a long face-to-face battle, the Israelis managed to eliminate all the terrorists in the apartment. But during the shooting from dozens of guns inside a crowded two-room apartment, Arnon Zamora was hit and lay on the floor bleeding, while three medics and a doctor leant over him, under heavy fire, trying to save his life.
Meanwhile, dozens of terrorists emerged from the tunnels around the building and began to fire at the Israeli fighters with machine guns and RPG missiles. The Israelis started making their way out of the building (several of them carrying Arnon Zamora on a stretcher), running through smoke-filled alleys and the nearby market which was crowded with thousands of Gazans who would not have hesitated to lynch them. The Israeli forces tried, under constant fire, to get to the rescue vehicle that was waiting for them, but it was hit by two RPG missiles. The commander of the operation in Israel then activated ‘Plan B’, the rescue plan that had been prepared in advance: a daring operation under massive, very close fire from the enemy, covered by Israeli fire from ground, sea and air.
With the help of tanks, hundreds of soldiers (from the Golani and Givati infantry brigades and paratroopers) charged on foot into the refugee camp, fighting face-to-face battles with Hamas terrorists while navy ships covered them from the west and air force helicopters from the east. Fire from the air hit the terrorists just ten metres from the Israeli soldiers. The reinforcement forces and the air force managed to isolate the battle scene, providing a safe escape route for the main force escorting the three hostages.
At the end of an exhausting and continuous battle the Israeli fighters eliminated all the armed threats in the battle arena. Hamas claims that during the rescue operation in the crowded streets of the refugee camp, 274 Palestinians were killed. However, the IDF says that 104 Palestinians were killed or wounded - all of whom were Hamas terrorists or armed civilians who collaborated with the terrorist organisation.
After the battle, the three abductees (who had kept their cool throughout) were led by the fighters to one of the Israeli helicopters waiting for them and flew them to Israel..."
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/the-inside-story-of-israels-dramatic-gaza-hostage-rescue-e2t1d8qu
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/the-inside-story-of-israels-dramatic-gaza-hostage-rescue-e2t1d8qu

This thread has generally been a really good space to show empathy for the hostages and I really hope it stays that way.

Even those of us who have disagreed on other threads have managed to mostly keep that aside.

I know this isn’t my thread, but it is my preference we keep this thread as it has been and that any discussions regarding the ins and outs of the hostage operation or differences of opinion are aired on a different one.

What are other people thoughts on keeping this thread for updates on how the hostages and their families are coping?

And that if people still want to talk about the latest hostage operation this is done on a different thread?

I saw how the other thread was overrun and derailed continously. Rude and ignoring any facts presented. I have read the account above. If the rescuers come under heavy fire then they will protect themselves. Hamas fighters came at them from everywhere, civilians will then die.

I'm pleased that some hostages were rescued since they'd still be there otherwise.

@PeasfullPerson , I just wanted to respond to this post with the full account of the Israeli rescue of the four hostages, though I understand why you hope this thread will remain one concerned with the hostages themselves, and remain respectful of them and their families, and all they are going through. I hope what I want to say does not show disrespect.

Thank you Alwayslook for the full account of how the hostages were rescued. It was certainly a daring mission and very dangerous according to the account.

Of course the freedom of these hostages is something to be celebrated. We all saw what happened to Noa and it is an image of absolute horror. Her father who so generously asked for peace for everyone has her back and she has seen her dying mother again. In spite of this the death of one of the brave, rescuing soldiers is something to be mourned.

One thing that is concerning about the account though is that in one section it is saying something that is contradicted by other reports and I find that troubling.

It makes it seem that, while a lot of the report must be true, and the Israeli soldiers had to cover themselves from attack by Hamas soldiers while they (Israelis) were trying to get out with the hostages, sometimes it reads a bit too much film script. Perhaps that is because it is an account of a real life daring and dangerous military action of the kind that becomes a legend then a film, but some parts seem questionable.

It says here,

Hamas claims that during the rescue operation in the crowded streets of the refugee camp, 274 Palestinians were killed. However, the IDF says that 104 Palestinians were killed or wounded - all of whom were Hamas terrorists or armed civilians who collaborated with the terrorist organisation.

but in this report,

GENEVA (14 June 2024) – UN human rights experts* today strongly condemned the umpteenth massacre by Israeli forces in Gaza during a hostage rescue operation in Nuseirat Refugee Camp, which killed at least 274 Palestinians, including 64 children and 57 women, and injured nearly 700.
9 hours ago

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/un-experts-condemn-outrageous-disregard-palestinian-civilians-during-israels

Maybe the Israeli soldiers were just doing all they could to protect themselves and the hostages, maybe they were not over careless with Palestinian lives, but I think some of that account is not true. I wish they had been more truthful. A lie in this part of the account is a very dark thing.

@ScrollingLeaves I note from the link that the IDF are referred to as Israeli Occupation Forces, which immediately suggests the source is not neutral.

Additionally, unlike the accounts from the soldiers, they were not there so where are they getting their information? If not Israel then Hamas.

Correct!

One of the UN Special Rapporteurs involved in that press release is Francesca Albanese. She used to claim she was a lawyer until a well respected Italian journalist challenged her as there's no evidence she ever passed the Italian Bar.

Check out her past comments concerning Israel, her husband Massimiliano's links with the Palestinian Authority and allegations of her trips being funded by pro-Palestinian groups which is a violation of the requirement to be independent in the role.

Haven't looked into the other ones personally.

But using "Israel Occupation Forces" instead of "Israel Defence Force" is revealing of a particular bias, yes.

Also 'Israeli occupying force'

So much pro hamas bias and support around. Took a lot of planning and if no one fired guns and RPGs back then no one around would have been injured. No accountability for that.

Naama, Liri, Danielle, Shiri, Ariel, Kfir........

Bring them all home.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/10/why-has-hamas-taken-hostages

Absolutely- and stating that only terrorists died is clearly disingenuous- given the extent of fighting involved in “plan b” and therefore an envisaged outcome.

First hand account:

When the bombs struck near his place in Nuseirat on Saturday, and Abu Nasser and his wife fled to the street, he was surprised to find so many ways to die: tanks, attack helicopters, shells, missiles, and, picking people off on the street, the drones with small arms attached.

“People were running before our eyes, fleeing from the drones,” Abu Nasser said. “And we hid in a place the drones couldn’t reach.”

Warning- this link shows distressing pictures, including of children.

https://theintercept.com/2024/06/10/nuseirat-massacre-israel-hostage-rescue-gaza/

So there are people on this thread who truly believe that the I only people who died were Hamas terrorists and armed civilians? There were no children, or women, or old people in that market place during the day when bombs rained down? No, people including women and children and old men in the buildings that were bombed? The severely wounded bodies all over the hospital were a figment of the imagination of those reporting?

And beyond all else, are we to believe that the IDF, - under full attack, trying to protect the four hostages, hardly escaping with their lives, with Hamas jumping up at them from tunnel entrances everywhere and shooting at them, armed civilians shooting at them according to this account - paused and started counting bodies, assembled body parts, went to visit the hospital, and spoke to relatives in order to assertain the numbers of dead and wounded?

The statement from the IDF in that Jerusalem Chronicle account posted by
Alwayslookonthe · Yesterday 18:51 saying, 104 Palestinians were killed or wounded - all of whom were Hamas terrorists or armed civilians who collaborated with the terrorist organisation.

This is very far from the truth.

It seems unlikely that you will believe anything that has not been asserted by the IDF or the Israeli government but here is an account by a non-Palestinian, James Elder from UNICEF in an interview
You may believe he is making it up, or because he uses the term ‘occupational forces’ he must be lying, but I shall post it anyway:

Then this, is from an Israeli source, Haaretz newspaper:
Why Did Israel Conceal Hundreds of Gazans' Deaths in 'Perfect' Hostage Rescue Operation?On the night of October 7, amid the day's atrocities, Israel resolved: We are done with conscience. From now on, it's only us and only force.

Can a society exist without a conscience? Can a state continue to function after its removal? Is the conscience a vital organ, like the heart or the brain, or is it like the spleen or the gall bladder, which you can live without?

It is wonderful these four hostages are free. It was a crime and abhorrence they were ever captured and others massacred on Oct 7, and that they have lived in hell all this time.

But the please do not deny that a great many Palestinians, children, women and old people, who were not attacking the IDF and impeding their escape with the hostages, who were killed and wounded as part of the rescue.

It sullies the rescue to lie about the negative aspects of it.

So there are people on this thread who truly believe that the I only people who died were Hamas terrorists and armed civilians?

I doubt anyone is disputing that there were likely civilian deaths. What is uncertain is the number, and that it was only IDF weaponry that killed them. I definitely don't believe that it was only civilians who were killed.

Thank you for answering @SomeCatFromJapan . I can understand your queries on those points, though I think many casualties are likely to be from IDF weaponery given their description of bombing cover from the east, from the sea to the west, and planes from above.

What I feel alarmed by is that, if the news account alwayslook posted didn’t just make up the IDF assertion about the 104 killed - all of whom were Hamas terrorists or armed civilians - then the IDF seems to have been openly lying.

Exactly, no one states its just hamas but also its not only women and children who died.

Also this.

Should they sit and wait for hamas to want 'unworkable amendments ' to the ceasefire negotiations or should they plan a rescue. The first rescue of of Noa went without any problems. The rescues were coordinated. But, the rescue of the new was attacked by numerous hamas fighters and civilians. The hamas rocket propelled grenades must have killed some innocent women and children. Although that is irrelevant to many.

But the IDF is saying that only Hamas or armed civilians died. Which means the IDF is saying that no women or children died.

That is what I am talking about.

And the account people don’t trust, because it used the phrase “occupational forces”, gives a number of 274 killed Palestinians, but does not say all of this number were women and children.

It states, 274 Palestinians were killed of whom 57 were women and 64 children. This is a total of 121 women and children out of the 274.

That leaves 153 who could be “Hamas fighters or armed civilians”.

So even if the untrustworthy account’s death figure (274) is incorrect, it is not actually making any false claim that it is only women and children who were killed.

It is the IDF who are making a false claim that only Hamas and armed civilians were killed/ that not any women or children were killed.

As for the ID figure of 104 total killed, I don’t see why that should be taken as reliable either, given their soldiers that day were hardly at liberty to be body counting.

I was replying and quoted the comment that

"So there are people on this thread who truly believe that the I only people who died were Hamas terrorists and armed civilians"

That quote is about people on this thread not the IDF which I responded to.

"So there are people on this thread who truly believe that the I only people who died were Hamas terrorists and armed civilians"