Israelis held hostage in Gaza - part 3

[StarbucksSmarterSister]

Part 3.

I hope they come home soon and there's no need for a part 4.

Here's the clip of Noa getting rescued, apologies if it has already been posted:
https://x.com/HenMazzig/status/1802026755555013081

Thanks for getting the thread back on track.

This seems surprising to hear,

Haaretz (Israeli newspaper) reports:

HOSTAGES/CEASE-FIRE: The chairman of the Israeli Association of Public Health Physicians, Dr. Hagai Levine, told a state audit panel in the Knesset that the government has no operative plan for the rehabilitation and treatment of hostages who were released or rescued from captivity, or for their family members. "I visited Noa Argamani last night, and I was amazed that there is no plan for her rehabilitation. Even after the return, there is abandonment," he said.

@ScrollingLeaves I don't think it's ever been about the hostages for Netanyahu. The rescue was a political move to try put them back in a powerful position and to try save himself. If it were solely about the hostages there definitely would have been a rehabilitation and therapy strategy in place after their return.

That’s appalling. I have to say I am surprised. They are going to need a lot of support.

@PeasfullPerson I agree.

IIRC this has been a problem since the first hostages were released in November - Israel is only a small country without lots of spare clinicians and therapists - back then professionals were being sought abroad but haven't seen anything more about that since

There;s also all the victims/survivors/witnesses from 7/10 who need help too

I'm sure there are community/charitable projects but the need is great for all of them and will be for years to come

Oh, that’s sad. And there will be people returning from fighting in Gaza who will also need help.

You are right @PeasfullPerson

At a state audit panel in the Knesset, Israeli combat soldiers accused the state of failing to provide care for them, including treatment for PTSD. Omer Amsalem, who fought in 2014's Operation Protective Edge, said "I've already been killed once. Why do we have to come here?…We fought for you. You didn't take care of us."

This happened to the Oct 7 surviving border spotting young IDF girls too who had been unbelievably traumatised.

The Hostages Next Door: Inside a Notable Gaza Family's Dark Secret:

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/the-hostages-next-door-inside-a-notable-gaza-familys-dark-secret-2896f6aa

That WSJ has to be subscribed to I think, as it did not work to “continue” reading it.

I think this Times of Israel article is based on it though.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/rescued-hostages-were-held-by-families-with-known-ties-to-hamas-says-report/

Rescued hostages were held by families with known ties to Hamas, says report
Nuseirat residents tell Wall Street Journal they were surprised to learn about the presence of four Israelis in the camp, and some are 'furious' that Hamas endangered them….

Obviously, firstly, there should not have been hostages, and secondly this put other residents in grave danger. As the alternative place to keep them would have been tunnels, however, being in a family flat in the way Noa was would seem to be preferable imo ( not that any of it is all right).

Given the circumstances I can see the IDF would have felt justified, and found it easier just to kill the whole families, then blown up their houses, but might it have been at all feasible perhaps to have tied up or wounded anyone unarmed, then imprisoned them pending a trial? This might have led to more useful information too.

We do not know what connection to terrorist-Hamas, as opposed to administrative offices, the families had
or if they were coerced into taking on the keeping of hostages.

As for this, from Hagari below, this question has been done to death on this thread, but it is not true.
“We know about under 100 [Palestinian] casualties. I don’t know how many of them are terrorists,” IDF Spokesman Daniel Hagari said.

The BBC report said:
Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry said 274 Palestinians were killed and 698 others were injured during the operation. Its figures do not differentiate between civilians and combatants.

The Hamas-run Government Media Office reported that 64 children, 57 women and 37 elderly people were among the dead.

(158 children, women and elderly killed many others injured.)

Awful. 'Normal' families are hamas supporters and holding hostages, you could see by the cheering in the streets after 7th Oct, the support they have for their terrorist activity. Not surprised that some hold hostages. Poor children in the middle.

It may be that someone has started another thread on this, but I urge everyone to listen to ‘The Best of Today’ on radio 4 which is about to come on soon, to hear an interview with a most remarkable Israeli woman who was a hostage. The interviewer was Emma Barnett and it was just on Today at 8.30.

She speaks Arabic, and taught it to in schools in the hope for peace. Now she cannot believe in it. Her account of what happened to her is extraordinary.

"Normal" families. I was trying to find out the history of the Dr . All there was is his age and he came from Ramla/e . If he was born there in 1950 and his parents went through the events of 1948 and ongoing while he would have grown up -not exactly normal.

So 74 years later he is holding Israeli hostages (like Israeli terrorists held Arab villagers hostage to drive them out of their villages/houses and take Ramla plus district) and his grandchildren watch him and their father being killed and all around them destroyed and the hostages have experienced an absolutely horrendous terrifying nightmare.

Is there any hope in 74 years time that the Israeli hostages descendants and the Dr's descendants could be living in peace or will the circle of violence keep going?

Ms Ada Sagi.

Yes, she was a peace activist who no longer believes peace is possible due to the actions of Hamas. She said a lot of interesting things including hostages being held at Nasser hospital which the hospital denies (conveniently).

And this:

"Ms Sagi said: "People say that they are not involved. They're involved... and getting money for each of us."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2eem7e7v30o

I'm sure I said somewhere it would be unlikely Hamas would force people to hold hostages as they wouldn't be very good at it and Hamas wouldn't be able to relax with them.

More likely to find civilians supportive of Hamas along with those who are doing it for money to hold hostages. These people become legitimate targets for military purposes.

As do hospitals being used for non-humanitarian purposes.

It has to be remembered that the support level for Hamas in Gaza is still very high.

Thank you for her name, Ada Sagi, which I could not recall from memory.

Yes, if I have remembered correctly, she said the family being paid to keep her wanted money to get out of Gaza. She said the amount is very high in Gaza terms, and people there are very poor.
Also, she and the other hostage were moved, because of bombs I think, to any safer places at given times, so there seemed to be a pre-planned list of families for this job. They were also put in a hospital at one point for safety.

The Best of Today is apparently the longer version so I am going to listen again.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0j52x9s?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Well Japanese families that lost people in the huge atomic bombs dropping on their cities didn't become terrorists. Neither did the Germans. I could go on. There are many who lose families in conflict and they don't automatically turn to terrorism, why do you assume that Palestinians will?

It would depend on what happens later I should think. Japan and Germany were both independent countries. Germany was given a great deal of help to rebuild, as the lesson had been learned after WW1 that punitive measures did not turn out well.

Maybe someone here will come on who knows about successful policies of reconstruction. A real path to being a recognised State and stopping the settlements in the West Bank might help too imo.

I think it's interesting you assume I am only talking about Palestinians turning to terrorism. Israelis have absolutely showed themselves capable of terrorism. They celebrate and commemorate an act of terror insulting the British Govt and public whilst they are at it.
They currently have a convicted terrorist supporter in Govt.
The extremist settlers are terrorists and thank goodness now banned from the UK.

Which terrorist attacks have the Israelies carried out then. Do you mean the war? The right to defend themselves from proscribed terrorist groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah. If War crimes have been committed then they need investigating and action taken. Due process.

The Palestinian people also? You didn't answer that. Many seem to expect them to grow up and turn to terrorism, why is that, you didn't answer that point made, rather you deflected. It seems common that the phrase 'making the next terrorists' is used when talking about Palestinian people. Why. Do they not have thd ability to move forward to peace? Why no belief in them.

I've no idea why people post that there are future terrorists being made (seen that often) when posting about the middle east. There is always an assumption there.

As I pointed out many countries in the iast that lost so many more didn't so its not a given. Japan, Germany and a number of other countries managed peace.

Perhaps it's how they are taught to hate, its generational. I've seen the videos with small children.

Thankfully Japan and Germany didn't. Maybe more long term view and promotion of peace for all. Could that work for both sides.

What would happen if they had an election tomorrow. Who would they elect. Hamas or a new peaceful government. It would be interesting to see.

As I pointed out many countries in the iAs that lost so many more didn't so its not a given. Japan, Germany and a number of other countries managed peace.

Gaza and the West Bank are not countries.

It's a good question, to be honest. You can include the vast majority of people of Northern Ireland in that too.

It is not a given, axiomatic or automatic that someone becomes a terrorist. Its not often as neat as A causes B, therefore C.

@US2gether are you arguing that not every Palestinian who is subjected to this moral injustice will become a terrorist?

Or are you arguing that it isn’t a risk factor, and that it should be completely discounted when assessing the likelihood of terrorist activity?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-officials-estimate-that-as-few-as-50-hostages-are-still-alive-wall-street-journal/

according to WSJ citing US intelligence, only 50 out of 120 hostages are believed to still be alive.

"US officials estimate that of the 116 hostages believed to be held by Hamas in Gaza, just 50 are still alive, the Wall Street Journal reports.
The assessment, based on a combination of Israeli and US intelligence, puts the number of deceased hostages at 66, a far higher number than Israel has publicly confirmed.
The IDF has confirmed the deaths of 41 hostages still in captivity, based on intelligence and findings obtained by troops operating in Gaza...
...
The Wall Street Journal adds that both the Prime Minister’s Office and the IDF declined to comment on the estimation."

The last comment would make sense, as IDF do not release names of casualties (either military or civilian) unless a) confirmed and b) the family have been told, and the Israeli media (MSM and usually social media) complies with this, to prevent family members finding out from media/social media, increasing the trauma and shock, rather than the news being broken through trained professionals. So if it is not confirmed, presumably they haven't got sufficient evidence yet?