IDF shoot hostages in Gaza after 'mistakenly identifying them as a threat'

[Struggggggling]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/idf-kill-israeli-hostages-mistakenly-identifying-hamas-gaza/

Previous hostages warned this would happen, tragic events. There is no winner in this conflict only losers.

Do you think Israel will now change tactics or if any histage swaps will take priority?

Ugh, I hate the “numbers game” because it’s so crass – reminds me of that “the only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none”: I mean, just one death in a war is one too many. However, since you insist on playing this…

Many posts on MN claim that Israel is carpet bombing Gaza with the intention of wiping it out, with no regard for civilian life. Yet 19,000 of a population of 2 million = 0.95% killed over a time span of almost 3 months. It’s a crass calculation, but if indiscriminate genocide was really Israel’s goal the numbers would be much higher by now.

Just as a comparison of the ferocity of the attacks, Nova Festival had an estimated 3500 attendees, of whom 364 are now confirmed to have died. That’s nearly 10.5%... within just a few hours! Quite an achievement, surely you must agree, for what might not even have been a planned attack.

Setting aside any consideration of the obscene level of sadism involved on 7 October, by both Hamas and the Gazan civilians who so enthusiastically participated, what would you consider a proportionate response?

Many posts on MN claim that Israel is carpet bombing Gaza with the intention of wiping it out, with no regard for civilian life. Yet 19,000 of a population of 2 million = 0.95% killed over a time span of almost 3 months. It’s a crass calculation, but if indiscriminate genocide was really Israel’s goal the numbers would be much higher by now.

Just as a comparison of the ferocity of the attacks, Nova Festival had an estimated 3500 attendees, of whom 364 are now confirmed to have died. That’s nearly 10.5%... within just a few hours! Quite an achievement, surely you must agree, for what might not even have been a planned attack.

And 52,286 Palestinians injured according to the UN. 70% of them women and children.

And 2 million Palestinian people displaced.

And all the people now missing, presumed dead. Again including many children.

You've repeatedly asked why 'nobody' blames Hamas for October 7th or the ongoing war. But multiple people, many people, most people on this thread have made it clear that they 100% believe that the October 7th atrocity was horrific, inexcusable and disgusting.

Saying that the Israeli response is also horrific, inexcusable and disgusting is not the same as defending Hamas in any way.

How about you start being this "nice person" and stop twisting what i said?

You asked me to show Israel isn't using intelligence lead strikes, which i did, numbers game? you did that.

I have never used the word "Genocide" again, you are twisting each and every word, not very nice.

A tiny proportion of Hamas/Gazan people took part in the 7th October attack, far far more have been killed by the IDF.

Proportionate response? there isn't one because no response, however violent, will bring back any Israeli killed, evidence for this is that Israel has launched attacks. over many years, on the Palestinians time and time again, locked them up, restricted supplies, bombed them, even expelled the terrorist leaders to Tunisia etc etc and still the killing goes on.

You might as well ask what the proportionate response the British should have
done to West Belfast or perhaps Dublin after the attempted killing of the British Government in Brighton.

I'm not twisting anything you said. I mention that a lot of posts on MN talk about genocide. They do!

The Brighton bombing was a little bit different. Women were not raped and dismembered, people were not burned alive, scalped, their eyes gouged out, etc, and I don't remember the streets of Ireland rejoicing at the news.

?! So bombing the music festival would have been OK, then?! And retaliation against the entire population of Gaza is only happening because people on the streets of Gaza celebrated, meaning that Israel’s reaction is collective punishment, despite claims that it is trying to avoid civilian deaths?

Gaza has been bombing Israel non stop for years, that's why a lot of the festivalgoers didn't bat an eyelid when they saw rockets in the sky.

Don't you think there would be more civilian deaths by now, if that was Israel's goal?

@Pizdietz - that’s a pretty unbelievable comment when 1% of the entire population of Gaza have been killed so quickly. Less than 2% of the entire British population were killed in 4 years of World War 1. Wars that kill, maim, starve and expose to disease an entire population are mass slaughter. 1% directly killed by attacks means a far, far higher percentage will now subsequently die as a direct consequence of the damage inflicted.

But we don't know the real number of deaths. How many are still buried under buildings?

Plus how many will die from lack of medicine, health care?

How many will starve?

The bombing is still ongoing and not enough aid is getting through.

Between 2011 and 2021 (10 years) it is estimated 1.5% of the pre-war civilian population of Syria have been directly killed by the conflict there. In just a couple of months, 1% of the Gazan civilian population have been directly killed.

You write so much verbiage that has only a loose association with reality

Just one example

Gaza has been bombing Israel non stop for years, that's why a lot of the festivalgoers didn't bat an eyelid when they saw rockets in the sky.

I and many many people have seen the film of when Hamas first made an appearance at the festival - para-gliders not missiles are first noticed high in the dawn sky, people point, more and more anxiously/frantically as they come closer firing weapons then people start to run

Many eye-lids sadly no longer with us 'were batted' to use your coarse terminology - people were naturally very frightened

Hamas hasn't been bombing Israel for years - they don't have planes - they have though been launching missiles/rockets for a long time

With over 85% of people in Gaza being displaced, almost the entire population of Gaza is being punished for the atrocities of October 7th.

And they will continue to be punished long after Israel leave.

Death, disability, and the destruction of key infrastructure and culturally important landmarks.

Grief on a mass scale.

I find it hard to believe that there isn’t a person in Gaza who hasn’t been personally touched by this tragedy.

@Pizdietz you got it the wrong way round.

No. Rockets were the first thing people noticed. There are many accounts of this. For example 01:25 in this account, from an American girl who was at Nova. When rockets were noticed overhead, everyone was so used to it that the party was expected to continue. She actually comments, "Imagine anywhere else in the world where a festival is going on and young kids see rockets intercepted over their heads and they think, Oh it's fine. That wouldn't really happen anywhere else in the world, but this is a reality for most Israeli citizens."

By the time the paragliders were seen, it was too late for an awful lot of people.

There is nothing coarse about "batting an eyelid" - it's an English expression for being surprised by something.

I often use the wrong word for things that get dropped on people and explode. I'm not a military expert. To be honest, if you drop them and they explode and kill people, I don't care what you call it, the intended effect is the same.

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"Imagine anywhere else in the world where a festival is going on and young kids see rockets intercepted over their heads and they think, Oh it's fine. That wouldn't really happen anywhere else in the world, but this is a reality for most Israeli citizens."

Imagine anywhere else in the world having a big ole festival 5km from people who are under collective punishment. There you are dancing and singing and having fun while just over the fence the country that is hosting this festival has completely collapsed their economy, restricted their access to basic needs and are severely impacting their quality of life. It's a fucked up place where fucked up things happen it would seem.

You see, I understand that because my initial reaction was similar. Now, I'm deeply ashamed of being so ignorant. It's a bit like "Well she was wearing a short skirt, so..."

@Pizdietz I remember that about the rockets too - they were the first thing happened but as you say, most of the festival-goers didn't think it was anything too untoward because the rockets were such a frequent occurance. It was only when they heard louder explosions that in many cases people realised something was seriously amiss.

What a weird thing to argue with you about.

Thanks @SomeCatFromJapan , it's nice to hear a friendly voice.

I think a lot of people have only seen the brief news coverage of the Nova festival attack, and have not bothered to investigate further.

Many of the blokes who were there, who had seen military service, said they only properly realised the danger when they started hearing machine gun fire. Until then, it seemed like more or less a normal day 🤯

Exactly, it appears difficult for some posters to understand the life of people in Gaza prior to October 7 and life in the occupied west bank. I think a very low percentage of Palestinians live in Israel itself and even then if they were to marry anyone from the west bank or Gaza they would have to move there. There has never been an effort to integrate Palestinians to live alongside Israelis. Would things be different if all cultures/religions could live together in Israel and enjoy equal rights?

Found this article about Arab citizens in Israel. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel#:~:text=A%20preponderance%20of%20the%20Arabs,East%20Jerusalem%20hold%20this%20status.

'Israel was founded as a homeland for the Jewish people seventy-five years ago, but a significant portion of its population has always been Arab. Today, Arab citizens of Israel—distinct from Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip—remain the country’s largest minority group.

They have the same legal rights as Jewish citizens, but many continue to face discrimination and socioeconomic disadvantages'

Apologies for going off topic but thought it might be of interest.

It's only the same if you think that the people partying beside the OPT deserved to be attacked rather than thinking that the people in the OPT don't deserve to be under collective punishment for decades. I don't see a problem in acknowledging that it's a fucked up place, you didn't have a problem with the party goer acknowledging that it's a fucked up place? What's the problem with me agreeing that it is indeed fucked up

Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick, there is just such animosity towards Israel here. I find this whole thread rather cruel, as it seems to gloat over a tragic mistake. Yes, we can agree it's all FUBAR 😞 The AMA thread is very interesting.

thank you @QueenRania , an interesting article.

On a related note, there is a database of discriminatory laws that affect non-Jewish Israelis at the link below.

https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

So has Israel been bombing Gaza and with a much higher death toll on a much smaller populace.

Don't you think there would be more civilian deaths by now, if that was Israel's goal?

You were complaining about crass comments and then you come out with that?