What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

What do you mean by "far left" and what do you mean in the context of UK politics today?

Sounds like you need to read up on Jewish Voice For Labour

Labour has other groups that represent Jewish voters and the UK Jewish community. JVL have very little support compared to other groups. Simple fact. Accusing a Jewish person of saying a trope when referring to their own community is an interesting thing indeed

You don’t want to discuss why antisemitism is a problem for the left so why don’t you leave this thread instead of constantly hijacking it with your sheer idiocy?

They're strongly hinting though.

If you don’t know this then I’m not sure this thread is for you.

I see people as good or bad

What a fucking stupid worldview which explains a lot.

You have been right all along Giraffe 😂

@Toothyfruity
...so currently, as things stand, not a genocide? So we can stop calling it that now, yes? Great!

No, the genocide is happening now. It has not gone to court yet.

Don’t worry it will be in all the history books, future generations will see for themselves that they ended up in The Hague due to their warcrimes and genocide. Ethnic cleansing too.

Oh ok, so even though no official body in the know has said it's a genocide, you've decided that you know better and will therefore keep calling it something it isn't?

Wouldn't it be better to find a more accurate term to call it by? You'd benefit the world by a) not spreading lies, b) not spreading unnecessary hate and c) you'd get a lot more posters on here agreeing with you that it's terrible that innocent people are caught up in this and have died and lost loved ones as well as their homes. Could even lead to conversations about what we can do to improve the situation, what we can do to help. You'd have to stop exaggerating and spreading dangerous untruths though.

Might be worth a try

to be fair, the former chief prosecutor of the ICC has called it a genocide.

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/upfront/2023/12/1/former-icc-chief-prosecutor-israels-siege-of-gaza-is-a-genocide

The International Criminal Court (ICC) investigates and, where warranted, tries individuals charged with the gravest crimes of concern to the international community: genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity and the crime of aggression.

https://www.icc-cpi.int/about/the-court

What does the current one say?

@SomeCatFromJapan

I would imagine whoever it is is legally obliged not to comment at this time while the crimes are ongoing. It would take a full legal due process. You know, the legal, proper way that International war crime cases are carried out?

Well in the same way the police and courts don't announce that a murder suspect is guilty before they've had a trial, neither do international criminal or human rights organisations. Surely you understand that concept.

I'm not going to stop calling it genocide because in my opinion it is genocide. A quick browse of international humanitarian law and the law of armed conflict makes that clear to me. You should have a look.

I don't think having conversations between ourselves is going to stop Israel doing what they're doing to be fair. Let's try to stay in the real world. They don't care what anyone thinks.

I would politely suggest that your friends on the left have a stronger grasp of historical fact which might be why they are Pro- Palestinian and Anti- Zionist (which is in no way the same as Anti-Semitic).

I'm certain you must be aware that the state of Israel has only existed since 1948 after the forced expulsion of 75,000 Palestinians from their homes (up to 80%of them). Before that Palestinians had been living in Palestine for over 2000 years. Illegal settlements and indiscriminate killings in Gaza have driven yet more Palestinians out. Netanyahu has made no secret that his goal is to occupy Gaza.

You may wish to have a chat to your friends and understand their viewpoints before dismissing their views as Anti-Semitic.

further to my post above, having said that, I have full confidence that someone like the ex-Chief prosecutor has seen enough and has enough expertise to call it out. I trust his expertise and judgement implicitly. If anyone has experience it's him.

And as he's not legally bound in this case, is not unable to speak his mind.

Their views are antisemitic. Thanks for another post not addressing the OP.

I would imagine whoever it is is legally obliged not to comment at this time while the crimes are ongoing

They seem to be being perfectly transparent about it.

"The chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court rounded off a historic first visit to Israel and Ramallah by posting video and written messages on Sunday, saying that a probe by the court into possible crimes by Hamas militants and Israeli forces “is a priority for my office.”

The other thing is that Israel isn't an ICC member so they don't have jurisdiction over them anyway.

@SomeCatFromJapan you can guarantee they will be looking at what Israel is doing.

My point was they can't be seen to pass a judgement either way while Israel is under investigation.

Unsurprising Israel is not an ICC member. I wonder why they wouldn't want to recognise a body that looks into war crimes?

Palestine is though. So Israelis can come before the court for crimes against Palestine.

Palestine is though. So Israel can come before the court for crimes against Palestine.

In practice that would be meaningless though. It's not like they have a special task force they can send in to arrest Netanyahu and bundle him off to the Hague.

Anyway time will tell I suppose.

It's okay to do genocide, just not call it that
Its okay to be a colonial power, but not be accused of it
Its acceptable to call for and bomb to flatten a country and call for and enact death to its inhabitants, but not to call for freedom of the people

Happened to Butcher of Bosnia. It happens, often too late and after the needless death of thousands, but it happens