What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

What exactly is the wrong sort of Jews?

What is that supposed to mean?

They are just Jewish people with a different political opinion. As in they don't see Jez was a problem and seem to like supporting Jew hating Jez fans for reasons most people in general don't get or understand.

These ones? Nice

Maybe you should text your totally real Jewish friend who completely agrees with everything you say and check if she thinks this is a little bit out of line?

Here's a prolific member of JVL - seems lovely, doesn't she?

https://twitter.com/JoosyJew/status/1731052271687917756

I have no connection with this organisation so not sure what you are on about, I walked with a friend who was connected, no other agenda, sorry to disappoint.

@Livinginanotherworld do you actually see 'hatred oozing' when talking to some of them. Really?
I see people putting their views across and some posts don't react positively to your emotive rhetoric but I reject your statement.

I am not a person filled with hate oozing or not. And there may be the odd questionable post but they are condemned rightly. I Don't see that when posters have a pile on 'pro pal' and it's almost a competition to metaphorically high five and back slap through the next thing you have dug up on the internet. Accusations at Israel going back the past hundred years and our explanations personally for them it's laughable.

Never do I see the longing for peace or mutual coexisting.... how that would work? Only condemnation of Israel and apart from a glancing grudging nod to oct/7 no responsibility for hostages being released,funnelling aid money appropriately, supportive women who were raped.

I feel we go round in circles with no end in sight: if we do that what does that show us? People here say the most awful things to each other.

Anyway I would like to talk about the left and I do think this thread has lost its way a bit.....

@etmoiandme what a delightful person and demonstrates why people may not take the JVL or an voice for the community.

@Toothyfruity
Because the IDF isn't deliberately killing civilians with the intent of eliminating a whole nation or ethnic group.

People who are complaining about the genocide (it’s not, but your term): again, Hamas provoked this. If they were prepared to fight in a straight forward war, this wouldn’t be happening. If they didn’t use civilian shields, this wouldn’t be happening.

If this is a genocide, then it is of Hamas’ doing. The suggestion that the entire IDF is populated and run by bloodthirsty maniacs who just love to kill Gazans is INSANE. The IDF are a modern military, just like every other modern military in the world. What’s nuts is how often they HAVEN’T retaliated against the (again) literal tens of thousands of rockets that have been launched against Israel. Funnily enough, precisely because they did not want to kill Gazan civilians. This time Hamas has crossed the line- they’ve pulled off the worst and most fatal terror attack since 9/11- killing, raping, torturing and kidnapping more than 1,000 civilians. Keep that in mind- this wasn’t a valid military target, this was babies, children, old men and women, random adults, civilians all- who for the crime of being Israeli- had to die. Some of them being dragged through the streets. Raped and executed.

Someone tell me, hand on heart, they think Israel shouldn’t have retaliated to this. Someone tell me that after the rockets, after the attacks, after the capture and murder of IDF soldiers, that Israel had no right to retaliate against Hamas for this attack.

Because if you accept that Israel does indeed have the right to defend itself, and has the right to strike back at Hamas, then the death of Gazan civilians IS ON HAMAS FOR USING THEM AS HUMAN SHIELDS. If they weren’t the cowardly scum of the earth, then they wouldn’t hide behind women, and use children, and sacrifice whoever they could to pursue their propaganda war.

That anyone could stomach such an assault on their citizenry, ever, and accept it without retaliation is frankly incomprehensible to me. I cannot imagine a situation where I was in any sort of political authority and did not pursue a retaliatory strike against the infrastructure that had performed such wickedness. It amazes me that Israel have accepted the rockets for as long as they have.

Excuse me ? I get a pile on ‘cause I happened to walk with the Jewish bloc to catch up with a friend who walking with them and suggested we walk together. Then when I question what was wrong with those people, I get called out again. Make your mind up ffs. Posters seem to have a problem with that organisation ( see above posts) I queried what was wrong with them. No agenda, but you’d like it to be so.

@Hiddenmnetter I'll get jumped on for this but I find the insistence that the Israelis/IDF are killing as many Palestinian civilians as possible from sheer bloodlust skirts perilously close to blood libel.

To be fair, it isn’t the whole left.

People in the Labour Party who consider themselves centrists, or of the Old Right tradition, Blairites, or simply just ‘Labour Party member’, don’t tend to be antisemitic (yes, there will be some I’m sure, but they aren’t the ones condemning Israel and screaming ceasefire).

And then the further you move left, the more extreme the antisemitism gets. It lingers over the ‘reformed’ 80s militants, gets worse heading into ‘poor Jeremy, but I want to stay in the Labour Party and complain I’ll be expelled if I voice my feelings so I won’t’, gets worse (or just more obvious) again heading further left into the ‘I stand why Jeremy! Expel me as a martyr!’ and the ‘I’ve left Labour in disgust over Jeremy’ lot. It then continues into full conspiratorial insanity as it gets to the most extreme left.

The Labour Party under Keir Starmer has done a huge amount in a short time to make the racists who were enjoying having the reigns of the Party under Corbyn completely irrelevant to the current Party. Many antisemites have been expelled, many have quit in a hissy fit, and those who sadly remain are uncomfortable. References I’ve heard about ‘waiting to be purged’ from the Party, how you ‘can’t disagree with Keir’ without being suspended, fury that they can’t bring antisemitic motions forward without them being ruled out of order. Those who remain almost hate the Labour Party now and seem to be praying it doesn’t get elected.

It is no longer the Party of Jeremy Corbyn, although of course there is far to go and one antisemite is one too many. But they are aware they are not welcome in the Party, and so stick together, talking amongst themselves about the unfairness of it all.

This is the modern military who have seized hundreds of innocent civilian men and boys over 14, stripped them, numbered them and kept them blindfolded and naked for 5 days, not letting them sleep and beating them regularly. The ones released do not know where their womenfolk and children were taken to when they separated them. They are now being treated as best they can for their wounds. They are traumatised.
yes, very modern and professional.

I actually don’t get it- like…do they imagine a squad of IDF rolling around in their humvees just taking shots at Gazans with the 50 cal?

I just googled Jewish Bloc as know nothing about it and came across this article about being a left wing Jew, which might be relevant to the thread.
The author claims historically the left has backed Israel, until Israel moved to a more right wing government

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/20/leftwing-jew-show-support-israelis-and-palestinians

They meet the threshold. I'm sorry you can't see that.

Because sadly it seems the reality is that it's #metoounlessyou'reajew

And
#nojewsnonews

OP, I echo your sentiment

Not even the UN are saying that, but sure.

Honestly the audacity of those who claim they don’t hate Jews they only hate the 95% zionist Jews to then claim their (Jewish!) interlocutors are dividing Jews into good Jews vs bad Jews just because we pointed out the ones they’re tokenising aren’t representative

>>At least people now know they don't represent the Jewish Labour voters or the Jewish community.
well clearly they represent some jewish labour voters, unless they are somehow lying about being either jewish or labour, or both. This "jewish community" of which you speak - all folk who are jewish think the same do they? About everything? sounds like what some on here like to call a "trope" if true.

Ah, Jon Lansman. I do actually have some sympathy for him despite the chaos he helped create - Corbyn loyalist who founded Momentum. But eventually the antisemitism became too much even for him and when he called it out - quelle surprise, his former buddies immediately turned on him. Because, guess what? He, a Jewish man, couldn't possibly be right about the antisemitism that had infested his movement.

Here's another article by him.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/12/momentum-founder-jon-lansman-says-leftwingers-in-denial-about-pro-palestinian-slogans

“One of the problems is that many on the left insufficiently differentiate between Jews. They seem to categorise them as Zionists or anti-Zionists,” he said.

“In fact, British Jews have a wide range of views and very many who the left might see as ‘Zionists’ are critical of illegal settlements, the occupation, of the Israeli government and even of the conduct of the present war.”

Interestingly, the author, Jon Lansman, co-founder of Momentum, also said of Jewish Voice for Labour (of the aforementioned Jewish Bloc protest) "JVL is an organisation which is not just tiny but has no real connection with the Jewish community at all"

I appreciate what Jon is saying, but antisemitism on the left has a long history which far predates Israel’s move to the right and Israel itself. In the 20th century the far left, including the likes of Militant, bought into an anti-imperialist world view and began backing against the west, including Israel.

But it was just one reason in a long line of antisemitism. Antisemitism shape shifts on the left, but it is a constant.

If you are referring to me, take your words out of my mouth. I have no idea who are or who are not representative. It was various posters including you who seem to want to separate everyone into ( as you put it) good or bad. I don’t know why you have to have agenda to cause trouble.
I see people as good or bad, nothing to do with whether they are a Jew or a Muslim or Catholic or Buddhist, I see people and judge them for their actions not their race or religion. So please, go and annoy someone else.

@Toothyfruity I must have missed the UN saying that?

Well obviously they won't comment on that. I'd imagine there has to be a trial before the UN would make such a statement. But a quick look at the Geneva Conventions should clear it up for you.