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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Netanyahu and Hamas

219 replies

AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 16:47

I am very confused about the Israel/Gaza situation and find it almost impossible to read about it without getting tangled up in how people who support the citizens of Gaza are pro hamas/anti semitic etc.

But I've heard from a few places now that Netanyahu actually encouraged Hamas so as to divide Gaza and the West Bank. I'm surprised there hasn't been more made of this as surely this means he has a lot of blood on his hands.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Help me understand please.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
SirBobblysock · 04/12/2023 17:37

Yes, I think this has been quite widely reported from many reputable sources. I read somewhere (but sadly can't find link) that it's acknowledged within Israel, and is contributing further to Netanyahu's unpopularity in some circles.

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 17:46

Goady.

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 04/12/2023 17:49

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 17:46

Goady.

Can you give some facts to substantiate you accusation of goadyness?

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 17:50

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 04/12/2023 17:49

Can you give some facts to substantiate you accusation of goadyness?

Show quote history

Let's see how the thread pans out.

paladium · 04/12/2023 17:54

WHAT DO YOU know about Hamas?

That it’s sworn to destroy Israel? That it’s a terrorist group, proscribed both by the United States and the European Union? That it rules Gaza with an iron fist? That it’s killed hundreds of innocent Israelis with rocket, mortar, and suicide attacks?

But did you also know that Hamas — which is an Arabic acronym for “Islamic Resistance Movement” — would probably not exist today were it not for the Jewish state? That the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups? That Hamas is blowback?

This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)
“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.

(from the article linked above)

Bells3032 · 04/12/2023 17:58

It's a load of rubbish used to excuse the barbaric behaviour of Hamas. There is zero evidence of this. It's just a conspiracy theory being repeated by crappy sources. Same as how people say Bush was responsible for 9/11 or that Israel was or Jews in general.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 04/12/2023 18:02

There is at least one PhD and two postdocs in that question, but I shall try to summarise relatively briefly:

Ever since the conclusion of the 1st Palestinian Intifafa and the subsequent Oslo Accords, the so-called "Two State Solution", i.e. the creation of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank has been the official position of the so-called international community on the question of how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could and should be laid to rest.

This is how the Palestinian Authority (PA) was created, led by representatives of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), dominated by Fatah and - back in the day - PLO chairman Yasser Arafat.

But, while this is the dominant school of thought, the two-state-solution has always had its enemies - Netanyahu being one of them (whatever he pays lip service to).

Preventing the implementation of a two-state solution has, in essence, been the political legacy of one Benjamin Netanyahu - and making sure one never happens has required some sort of plausible claim to "but, oh, there is no partner for peace". Therefore, the PA - corrupt and despised as it already was - needed to be weakened further, lest it gain any serious momentum or further legitimacy!

Enter Hamas! Bibi loved them! He regarded them as a way to prevent Palestinian unity - and Palestinian unity, in his mind, was the worst thing that could ever happen! The PA were unpopular and corrupt - Hamas, while Islamist and considered "distasteful" by Western governments ran on an anti-corruption program and were doing quite well in terms of gaining populatity. Not, for the record, for their militancy but for their social programs.

Bibi loved it and thought they were the best thing that could ever happen to him!

He is a cynical narcissist, of course, and wants to stay in power at any cost. So, in spite of how well documented this is: please expect him to say he never said/thought/did this - in fact, it was ... [he will try and find some way to blame one of his domestic opponents; he just works that way]!

Toothyfruity · 04/12/2023 18:04

What don't you understand OP? Netanyahu doesn't want a two state solution. He wants one state, Israel, so he disempowered the Palestinian Authority by supporting Hamas because he knows that Hamas won't be brought to the table to negotiate any peace deals or long term two state solutions whereas the Palestinian Authority would.

Another part of that plan is to remove Palestinians from Gaza to take over the land and we can see that happening as we speak. His government is also supporting armed settlers to remove Palestinians from their homes and farms in the West Bank for the same reason.

He most certainly does have a lot of blood on his hands. Most recently 1200 Israelis and over 16000 Palestinians.

And to be clear, obviously Hamas and the other groups who carried out the attacks in Israel are responsible for the deaths there, but Netanyahu's approach to Hanas strengthened them. Then there's the news that came out at the weekend that apparently there were warnings about this attack a year ago that were seemingly ignored.

Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 19:17

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 17:46

Goady.

I'm not trying to be goady. I'm trying to formulate my own opinion on this and it's really hard.
On one hand there is the absolute atrocity of the terrorism against Israel on 7th October
On the other are all the videos and reporting showing Gaza essentially being razed to the ground with a population who appear to be trapped

Any question about what's happening in Gaza is met with responses about anti semitism

But a lot of the pro Palestinian responses miss out how awful what happened in Israel is.

I'm picking my way through that and then I see this about Netanyahu which basically makes me think he has the blood of innocent Israelis and Gazans on his hands and I can't see how this can end if he's in power. I don't understand why there hasn't been more moves against him.

But I don't fully understand it so I thought I'd ask.

OP posts:
Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 19:18

HeidiInTheBigCity · 04/12/2023 18:02

There is at least one PhD and two postdocs in that question, but I shall try to summarise relatively briefly:

Ever since the conclusion of the 1st Palestinian Intifafa and the subsequent Oslo Accords, the so-called "Two State Solution", i.e. the creation of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank has been the official position of the so-called international community on the question of how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could and should be laid to rest.

This is how the Palestinian Authority (PA) was created, led by representatives of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), dominated by Fatah and - back in the day - PLO chairman Yasser Arafat.

But, while this is the dominant school of thought, the two-state-solution has always had its enemies - Netanyahu being one of them (whatever he pays lip service to).

Preventing the implementation of a two-state solution has, in essence, been the political legacy of one Benjamin Netanyahu - and making sure one never happens has required some sort of plausible claim to "but, oh, there is no partner for peace". Therefore, the PA - corrupt and despised as it already was - needed to be weakened further, lest it gain any serious momentum or further legitimacy!

Enter Hamas! Bibi loved them! He regarded them as a way to prevent Palestinian unity - and Palestinian unity, in his mind, was the worst thing that could ever happen! The PA were unpopular and corrupt - Hamas, while Islamist and considered "distasteful" by Western governments ran on an anti-corruption program and were doing quite well in terms of gaining populatity. Not, for the record, for their militancy but for their social programs.

Bibi loved it and thought they were the best thing that could ever happen to him!

He is a cynical narcissist, of course, and wants to stay in power at any cost. So, in spite of how well documented this is: please expect him to say he never said/thought/did this - in fact, it was ... [he will try and find some way to blame one of his domestic opponents; he just works that way]!

Thank you!

OP posts:
HeidiInTheBigCity · 04/12/2023 19:23

HeidiInTheBigCity · 04/12/2023 18:02

There is at least one PhD and two postdocs in that question, but I shall try to summarise relatively briefly:

Ever since the conclusion of the 1st Palestinian Intifafa and the subsequent Oslo Accords, the so-called "Two State Solution", i.e. the creation of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank has been the official position of the so-called international community on the question of how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could and should be laid to rest.

This is how the Palestinian Authority (PA) was created, led by representatives of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), dominated by Fatah and - back in the day - PLO chairman Yasser Arafat.

But, while this is the dominant school of thought, the two-state-solution has always had its enemies - Netanyahu being one of them (whatever he pays lip service to).

Preventing the implementation of a two-state solution has, in essence, been the political legacy of one Benjamin Netanyahu - and making sure one never happens has required some sort of plausible claim to "but, oh, there is no partner for peace". Therefore, the PA - corrupt and despised as it already was - needed to be weakened further, lest it gain any serious momentum or further legitimacy!

Enter Hamas! Bibi loved them! He regarded them as a way to prevent Palestinian unity - and Palestinian unity, in his mind, was the worst thing that could ever happen! The PA were unpopular and corrupt - Hamas, while Islamist and considered "distasteful" by Western governments ran on an anti-corruption program and were doing quite well in terms of gaining populatity. Not, for the record, for their militancy but for their social programs.

Bibi loved it and thought they were the best thing that could ever happen to him!

He is a cynical narcissist, of course, and wants to stay in power at any cost. So, in spite of how well documented this is: please expect him to say he never said/thought/did this - in fact, it was ... [he will try and find some way to blame one of his domestic opponents; he just works that way]!

... this would actually be funny if it were not also so serious, if tens of thoudands were not, in fact being killed!

please expect him to say he never said/thought/did this

... but of course he was one step ahead of me - he already has: https://www.politico.eu/article/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-qatar-money-war-israel-gaza-palestine/

Netanyahu: Don’t accuse me of boosting Hamas with Qatari money

Netanyahu’s opponents say he allowed Qatar to prop up Gaza to play ‘divide and rule’ between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.

https://www.politico.eu/article/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-qatar-money-war-israel-gaza-palestine

Limeandsodaontherocks · 04/12/2023 19:30

AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 19:17

I'm not trying to be goady. I'm trying to formulate my own opinion on this and it's really hard.
On one hand there is the absolute atrocity of the terrorism against Israel on 7th October
On the other are all the videos and reporting showing Gaza essentially being razed to the ground with a population who appear to be trapped

Any question about what's happening in Gaza is met with responses about anti semitism

But a lot of the pro Palestinian responses miss out how awful what happened in Israel is.

I'm picking my way through that and then I see this about Netanyahu which basically makes me think he has the blood of innocent Israelis and Gazans on his hands and I can't see how this can end if he's in power. I don't understand why there hasn't been more moves against him.

But I don't fully understand it so I thought I'd ask.

Show quote history

I don’t understand why this question is goody?
I think both Hamas and Netanyahu must go . Whether or not Netanyahu helped Hamas to power he ( like Hamas) is an obstacle to peace and justice .

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 19:41

I would assume, for one so well read, that you would do some research rather than start a bun fight.
Or......Hmm

Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 19:43

I find it easier to get a broad range of perspectives from threads on here rather than trying to establish reliable or otherwise information from the Internet.

OP posts:
Happyvalleyfan · 04/12/2023 20:03

There was also WikiLeak about a diplomatic exchange between then Israeli Director of Military Intelligence, Major General Amos Yadlin, and US Ambassador to Israel Richard Jones-

Yaldin is quoted as saying in a cable

“Israel would be happy if Hamas took over Gaza because the IDF could then deal with Gaza as a hostile state.” »

https://m.jpost.com/defense/yadlin-israel-would-be-happy-if-hamas-takes-over-gaza

Yadlin: Israel would be ‘happy’ if Hamas takes over Gaza

Wikileaks cable reveals ex-MI chief dismissed Iran's influence over Hamas, said IDF could deal with Gaza as hostile state if Hamas ruled.

https://m.jpost.com/defense/yadlin-israel-would-be-happy-if-hamas-takes-over-gaza

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 20:17

@AdamRyan is that a collective thing or just for this thread? Just curious?

paladium · 04/12/2023 20:24

I'm curious to know why some posters are so upset by the question being asked, it's a fair question.

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 04/12/2023 20:28

Goady

Its true though.

Toothyfruity · 04/12/2023 20:32

paladium · 04/12/2023 20:24

I'm curious to know why some posters are so upset by the question being asked, it's a fair question.

Truth hurts?

Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 20:57

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 20:17

@AdamRyan is that a collective thing or just for this thread? Just curious?

In general, but I have noticed over the years it's got a bit harder to have a measured debate when people disagree. But one of the things that keeps me here is that there are a lot of clever people with diverse opinions.

OP posts:
Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 20:57

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 04/12/2023 20:35

Second one is in my OP and one of the reasons I posted

OP posts:
Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 20:59

Happyvalleyfan · 04/12/2023 20:03

There was also WikiLeak about a diplomatic exchange between then Israeli Director of Military Intelligence, Major General Amos Yadlin, and US Ambassador to Israel Richard Jones-

Yaldin is quoted as saying in a cable

“Israel would be happy if Hamas took over Gaza because the IDF could then deal with Gaza as a hostile state.” »

https://m.jpost.com/defense/yadlin-israel-would-be-happy-if-hamas-takes-over-gaza

That's interesting, thank you

OP posts:
Original poster
AdamRyan · 04/12/2023 21:11

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 04/12/2023 20:35

The long read is interesting, I'm quite sceptical of the Guardian on this topic as they seem morecritical of Israel
Reading that, it feels as if Hamas and Likud are locked into some kind of symbiotic relationship, neither can survive without the other. But the Israelis and Gazans are paying the price.
That longer article also makes Netanyahu sound similar to putin 😱

OP posts: