Why Can't Gazans Leave?

[miniaturepixieonacid]

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

All of it is the British mandate. At the time Jews and Palestinians are scattered throughout (which is why it was so difficult to coherently divide the land in the first place).

But Jews and Palestinians are not mutually exclusive. There were Palestinian Jews, Muslims and Christians but Muslims were by far the largest percentage of the population.

Those Palestinians, regardless of their religion, are the ones who were there prior to the war and the ones with the strongest claim to the land. The Jewish refugees may have had a spiritual claim to the land but that’s not the same as physically living there and calling it your home.

And it was most certainly recognised as Palestine by the Zionists encouraging Jewish immigration there.

The British mandate means nothing. The Palestinians didn’t recognise the authority of the British colonial government nor the right of Britain to encourage Jewish immigration, nor the UN partition plan. It’s not really up to anyone to carve up the land, other than the people living there who are now mostly displaced by expulsions and village clearances by Israel.

Unless you are saying that Palestine was empty until the late 1800s and then flooded with immigrants from neighbouring Arab states? If so, what is your source?

https://waronwant.org/news-analysis/israeli-apartheid-factsheet

The UN and others don’t agree with you.

Un resolution 242
The deal was for Arab countries to recognise Israel as a state. Egypt and Jordan accepted this.
Israel was to withdraw from occupied territories, and return to pre 1967 borders. It still has not done so!
Over the years Israeli settlements in occupied territories have only increased!

Oslo accords
Peace agreement between yesterday arafat and yitzhak Rabin.
The agreement was israel would gradually remove its military presence and leave the illegaly occupied territories. Both of these were not met. In fact over the next 5 years settlements increased!
Rabin was even assassinated by a right wing Israeli, who didn't want peace.

"At anti-government rallies, protesters carried placards showing a Photoshopped Rabin wearing Arafat’s distinctive keffiyeh, or in a Nazi uniform. Everywhere he was branded a traitor."
One of the right wing politicians who opposed the accord was Netanyahu.

Again camp David in 2000 - Israel wouldn't allow right of return to Palestinians who were forced out during the nakba. Both parties couldn't agree on borders.

Despite withdrawing from gaza they still continued a blockade. Gaza is an open air prison

The reason why Palestinians have not accepted the terms laid down by Israel in the many negotiations is because those terms are unreasonable.

The right to return was not granted to those forcibly evicted. Who in their right mind would accept such terms.

It is a testament to Israeli spin that Israel managed to unilaterally declare itself a state, take over a country, expel the local population but it is the Palestinians who are seen to be unreasonable for not accepting the crumbs that are thrown to them.

Not even all Israeli citizens are aware of the history behind their State.

@Itsaharddlife do you have many open air Prisons where people chose to holiday, has huge wealth and its own horse racing federation?

It's laughable. And shows how Little you actually know about that area....

Israel withdraw
Gaza scuppered the infrastructure.

@OkInSmallDoses a country that has had Jews in it same inception. No one has more right to be there.

On another thread you said palesrinains have always refused peace deals. I've jjst explained how that's not entirely true and not one sided like you seem to think. You've not responded to any of that. Maybe you also know very little

Perhaps you also find it laughable that foreigners can holiday in gaza yet the palestinians themselves can't return there nor can they leave gaza
Very funny

@OkInSmallDoses this is very anachronistic and Jews have had a continuous presence on the Levant for millennia.

The Jews who moved there before & during WW2 (sadly a tiny number) were going there because it was under the British Mandate and therefore one of the few places on Earth safe from the Holocaust. Some even volunteered to serve in the British army and fought the Nazis. They were fleeing genocide, moving close to other Jews in safe, empty land not carrying out some weird religious colonial fantasy.

When you talk about refugees, most Israelis descended from refugees were descended from those expelled from MENA countries. When nearly a million Jews are forcibly displaced, nobody has a right to complain about who takes them in.

As for the Holocaust survivors you are talking of people who lost EVERYTHING: their homes, their families, their freedom. They lived in refugee camps for years which were not much better than where they had been supposedly liberated from. Only about 100k went to Israel, less than half.

All this is also kind of… academic? There are 9 million Israelis who are not going anywhere.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/hell-earth-israel-unrest-spotlights-dire-conditions-gaza/story?id=103829699

Gaza is poor - very poor.

You have accidentally stumbled on the reason there will never be peace.

There will never be peace while Palestine still ridiculously demands “right of return”. It is not going to happen. That’s not even accounting for the fact that everyone and their dog is suddenly claiming their great grandad was from West Jerusalem lmao. Stage 1 of peace, which could have happened 75 years ago, would be accepting the 2 state solution.

Ridiculous demand. Its ridiculous to expect people to give up their homeland because another people stake a claim on it from thousands years previously because it was supposedly given to them by God. Its ridiculous that you think it was ok for European Jews to move there yet those that were born there or can trace their ancestors and immediate family to the land have no right to return.

@Itsaharddlife I guess I should pack up and make my way back to my Viking roots in Norway or wherever my ancestors were from. Looking forward to claiming my Norwegian lake and log cabin. I'm sure the Norwegians will welcome me with open arms, LOL.

I didn’t know about this so researched

wealth : citizens are poor. Unlike Hamas top members (which id expect as they’re funded by other governments )

people choose to holiday : I love traveling so I’ve searched what do I have to do to holiday in Gaza. This is what I can find “Gaza is not open to individuals wishing to travel or explore the region per se, but to those with a connection to international organisations or journalists, for example. In order to gain access to Gaza, you must have a legitimate reason to enter before you can apply for either an Israeli Israeli or Egyptian travel permit” unfortunately Israel wouldn’t allow me choosing Gaza as a holiday.

Federation: yeah this seems like the Gazans are really lucky that they’re allowed to have one! Not sure why they complain!

unfortunately it’s not us only calling it open air prison : human rights watch , ai , un and many other international organisations call it too.

So I guess the Israeli law of return is ok, you can come if you or your relatives are Jewish. Yet the Palestinian refugees can't return.

And people are still arguing that Israel wants peace

You have accidentally stumbled on the reason there will never be peace.

There will never be peace while Palestine still ridiculously demands “right of return”. It is not going to happen.

And you’ve stumbled on the appalling double standards of Israel’s apartheid policy. Do you think it’s ok that European Jews who are no longer fleeing persecution can make Aliyah even though they’ve never set foot in Israel whilst Palestinians are not allowed out of Gaza into the villages of their parents and grandparents?

For a Palestinian it is possible to travel from the West Bank to Gaza only if the person pledges to permanently relocating to Gaza.

This seems to be quite an unusual law. Most countries , including Israel, allow travel according to article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So why are Palestinians different?

That’s not even accounting for the fact that everyone and their dog is suddenly claiming their great grandad was from West Jerusalem

This is a remarkably cruel and flippant thing to say considering Muslims are literally being forced out of their homes in Jerusalem. Sometimes their doors are being welded shut by the IDF.

Colonialism at its finest.

I guess I should pack up and make my way back to my Viking roots in Norway or wherever my ancestors were from.

Don’t be disingenuous. We’re talking about people being displaced within living memory, not a thousand years ago.

Incidentally if one of your parents were Norwegian you would have more chance of gaining Norwegian citizenship than a Gazan whose both parents were expelled from Palestine gaining the right to return.

We don’t expect any other people to put up with the lack of rights given to the Palestinians. We don’t call any other group ridiculous for wanting such basic dignity.

This is an interesting article on why Egypt won’t let Gazan’s in.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/why-egypt-has-not-fully-opened-its-gaza-border-for-fleeing-palestinians

and the Egyptian’s protesting for the border to be opened (where Protest is illegal) https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/03/egypt-palestinians-rafah-border-rights

@Itsaharddlife it’s nothing to do with God, that’s just racist.

• Jews are indigenous to the Levant. This is backed up by archaeological, scientific and genetic evidence and is a matter of extensive historical record.
• Despite multiple conquests, Jews have had a continuous, uninterrupted presence on the Levant for thousands of years, which even predates the migration of Arabs to the Levant. Jewish links to the land are constant and ancient.
• The vast majority of Israeli Jews descended from refugees are descended from MENA refugees. There is no other MENA country that wants them, only Israel. I have not seen anyone call for their right of return 🧐
• The conflict in the Levant between Arabs and Jews predates the British Mandate (by centuries). By the time of the mandate, the British and then the UN were on their nth attempt to resolve a conflict that already existed.
• The state of Israel was created in the same way many states were created during those years of the exit of colonial powers. The only difference between Israel and the other new states (including Palestine) is that it was to have a Jewish majority which is the only reason it is still controversial. How much time do you spend debating whether Jordan has a right to exist and have a national identity? Or Pakistan? Or even Palestine? These could all be described as novel colonial creations in exactly the same way.
• Israel controls its own immigration policy, its own borders and decides whether to accept refugees. Your critique applies to every single country on earth. A lot of Jews see Aaliyah as a spiritual journey - two things can be true. Most countries have immigration. Lots of countries do not allow Jewish immigration at all, and yet you begrudge the one single country that celebrates it.
• Taking in refugees is a nice thing to do.
• If historical ties to a land are so irrelevant, then why does it matter where a Palestinian dude’s grandad was living before 1948?
• A lot of the kibbutzes that were attacked on October 7 for being “occupied” predate Israel and were founded on empty bits of British desert. The founders were rebelling against the colonial power, Britain, by finding loopholes in Britain’s planning laws. Do they have to return the land to the crown or do the British have right of return?
• Israel exists. It has statehood, is internationally recognised, has a national identity and a military prepared to defend it. 9 million Israelis are not going anywhere. Get used to them.
• Palestinians have been kept in permanent refugee status thanks to UNWRA. Peace is actively prevented by idiots pedalling the false hope of the “right of return” to people who would never be entitled to it anyway. Israel is going nowhere. They need to accept the 2 state solution and focus on making Palestine successful. The authorities need to stop investing in trying to wipe out Jews and start investing in making Palestinian lives better.

It's not racist its literally the argument many israelis are using. I thinks it's racist to have one rule for one and another for others.
Where do you think these palestinian refugees came from? They were forced out of their homes. 1948 nakba so Jewish settlers could take their place.
It doesn't make it ok for them to continue creating illegal settlements either

So sorry I was being sarcastic and didn't read back through the debate far enough and missed something. I am on the side of Palestinians to have their right to return but thought the chat related to people claiming their land from thousands of years ago. I don't think anyone should be able to claim ownership to a land based on ancestors living there thousands of years ago, but do think Palestinians expelled in recent decades should be allowed to return. Scanning quickly but should have RTFT better, sorry if my comment didn't make sense.

It is not an argument any Israeli is using, it’s an antisemitic trope.

You are taking a story from Judaism and falsely pretending Jews believe modern day Israel was gifted by God. I’m not religious, and lots and lots of different peoples around the world have a mythologised history of how they came to be associated with their ancestral land. Sometimes the stories are magical or spiritual. You don’t have to believe it word for word, but it demonstrates a link. In the case of Judaism, it’s Moses leading the Hebrews across the desert from where they were enslaved in Egypt. FYI bad news for you but archaeology does not support this story and does in fact suggest that the ancient Hebrews came from………well……… Canaan, or what you might call “Israel/Palestine”.

You've missed my point entirely. Honestly ridiculous that your justifying this by who was there first?
The fact remains that between 1900-1980 there was mass Jewish immigration into the land that was recognised as palestine before 1948. The first came from Russia hungry Poland, and then more from Eastern Europe during the nazis and then post 1948 there was mass immigration of Jews from Arab countries.
They werent there before. For them to move in massive numbers into the homeland of another people (mixture of Jews, Muslims, christians) and then essentially force them people out under the pretence that they were there first (thousands of years earlier) . Ridiculous and cannot in any way justify the nakba . Back to my original point.