Why Can't Gazans Leave?

[miniaturepixieonacid]

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

Only half true. I lose count of how many peace deals Israel has agreed to and Palestine has rejected. Not just Hamas who cannot be reasoned with but all of the authorities who have governed/are governing the Palestinian territories. Israel’s demands in the overall conflict are actually relatively simple (basically “recognise Israel, you don’t even have to like us, or trade with us, or talk to us, you can pretend we don’t exist, just stop trying to wipe us out”) and they have proven they are even willing to cede land… Ariel Sharon even offered Jerusalem at one point. But how do you make peace with someone who wants to kill you.

@cauliflowerwaterfall I disagree. Neither side wants to find solutions.
Listen to Hisam Zomlot, the Palestinian ambassador to the UK. He talks about the numerous times Israel has refused to come to the table

Israel has refused to sign up to peace deals. It's not correct to suggest that they want peace. Look at the Christmas 2016 deal.

I'm watching the news. The suffering is really off the scale. Little children and babies being bombed to bits and laying around on floors in hospitals that are barely functioning. The north and south. It's horrendous.

Well the Palestinian Ambassador to the UK is not going to say “it’s us LOL” is he. Palestine also doesn’t have one government representing them all. The facts speak for themselves. Israel has agreed to multiple peace deals and made huge concessions. In 2005, Israel forcibly and unilaterally moved 8k of their own people from Gaza - removed them from their homes, businesses, livelihoods - in exchange for peace which was never delivered on by Gazans.

It's also really concerning that Israel largely control the narrative on what is actually going on in Gaza, not even allowing international journalists to verify their version of events.
You just need to turn the TV on to listen to the IDF. The same is not true of the Palestinians. It requires effort to find out their point of view and all we have are fragments of info.

@cauliflowerwaterfall nieve what you want.
As I was saying, it's a lot easier to beleive the Israeli government - their mouthpiece is everywhere and they control the narrative.

Which one? There were something like 3 different “conventions” in 2016. I think the one you mean was the attempt by the outgoing US administration that was kept secret until after the election in December. We don’t know what the deal was, precisely because it was a secret. Its existence was leaked by the outgoing Obama administration and it seems they over-sold what was essentially a single meeting and a US-centric proposal as a whole peace deal. There was also a disastrous attempt by the French in 2016 as well as another “meeting” of doubtable seriousness with the incoming Trump administration.

Because they then proceeded to impose a blockade on Gaza for the last 16 years.

blockade*

*small print: of items that can be used to manufacture arms to fire at Israeli citizens, such as the rockets which have been fired non-stop for the last 16 years (including 15 minutes into the most recent ceasefire) and which they seem to have no issues sourcing from elsewhere

All Israelis and the army withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in the interests of peace. The Israelis left their homes and farms. What happened - rockets still came over to Israel.

Asylum should be given, particularly by the UK, which has a historic responsibility and is backing the invasion of Gaza, along with the US. I know they will never get back home, but I think we need to save some of them, particularly children. Richer countries can all take some. If we don't I believe they will all be killed outright or die from the conditions there. Most of us do not want to stand by and see a whole people wiped out, I thought there might be some hope of a ceasefire and somehow rebuilding Gaza, but I don't anymore. There will be no mercy from anywhere I feel now, and the only hope of saving some of them is refugee schemes. Maybe someone can persuade me I'm wrong.

Or an open air prison, for those who care about human rights.

@cauliflowerwaterfall so Israel took 10 years to withdraw from Gaza, how many decades do you think it will take them to withdraw from other Palestinian land? After all this was a condition Israel agreed to in one of the peace deals.

R*edToothBrush
*

'*falling over to welcome'

Are you on glue?

Are you not seeing the massive backlash starting to happen in the EU over Ukrainians (which was always sadly inevitable I fear)?*

No I have to say that I am not seeing a massive backlash. My guest is overwhelmed by the UKs welcome. There has been a phenomenal amount of socials, workshops and unlimited kindness .. frequent trips to both Germany and Poland confirms grumbling from the far right.. but the clues in the title - they are far right and failed to get sufficient seats to get elected in October .. so no. Considering the sheer numbers that Europe has welcomed ...

So my question remains. Why no one expecting anything of The Palestinians neighbours ?

Gaza has two doors. One to Israel and one to Egypt. Why can't the Arab world which has wealth beyond imagination, not organise a humanitarian lift of children along the lines of the WW2 Kindertransport ? Or even mothers and children .. ? From the Rafa crossing .. ? If they really cared.

Personally I believe they do not WANT to get involved . There is political capital to be made from Israel's appalling bombardment.. do not for one moment think that Hammas are surprised by the level of reprisals. They provoked and wanted it. They will never be in danger such are the network of tunnels and bunkers. They don't care about the civilians or Gaza, they are useful cannon fodder in an attempt to galvanise the Arab world into a war with Israel.

It isn't going to happen. All Hammas has achieved is the destruction of Gaza and some temporary bad PR for Israel and thousands of pointless deaths .

if it was just small items used to manufacture arms, can you explain why Israel felt it necessary to restrict calories to the minimum needed for life for Gazans?

The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010, according to files the defence ministry released on Wednesday under a court order.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

A poster from MN was saying how she visited Palestine and all the people are of a much shorter stature, due to malnutrition and to trauma. Appalling.

Of course, it doesn't end with Gaza. The government is committed to taking the WB, and some of them to taking parts of Syria and Lebanon. That's a lot of refugees,

It’s not Palestinian land, some of it was disputed land but most of it is undisputed Israeli land. If you effectively cede your claim to some land that doesn’t mean your original claim was bogus, it means that whatever you’re getting in exchange (in this case: peace) is more important to you. Israel offered a very good deal that I very much doubt will ever be offered again. But there are alternate histories where peace was achieved 20, 50, 70 years ago.

https://alianzaporlasolidaridad.org/voluntariado/palestinians/

I mean this map shows quite clearly allocated Palestinian land, looks like Israel have been creeping into it rather a lot, doesn't it.

@paladium but we know that the tunnels are in existence and it's folk law discussing exactly what has been sent through them from Egypt.

Why has it not occurred to unwra to spend any of that aid on food or keeping its civilians. Or snuggle through food instead of weapons with which to cause Israel harm.

Unless I am missing something?

Once again with the land. It's not Palestinian. Historically.

The graphic is misleading and endlessly debunked, which you have probably already seen but for the benefit of others:

The first map is probably the most misleading. All of it is the British mandate. At the time Jews and Palestinians are scattered throughout (which is why it was so difficult to coherently divide the land in the first place). During this time, Jews & Arabs were trying to claim random bits of land by starting pop up settlements and basically getting around loopholes in British planning laws. Much of the land was not occupied by anyone. So there has never been a neat way to divide the land. There were also more than Jews and Palestinians living there. Druze, Samaritans, Christians, etc. The map author has cynically designated every inch of land without Jews as “Palestinian land” including empty land. At this time, “Palestine” is a region rather than a nation (and the Palestinian people as an ethnic group live across MENA they are not restricted to this particular land). It’s historically complicated as many designated Palestinian settlements were built on top of much older Jewish settlements.

That is the key to all this: two sides with a compelling & historic claim to the same land that do not want to share. As creepy and reminiscent of 1930s discourse it is when you hear activists basically obsessing over the Jewish ethnicity and stuff, I do understand the temptation to do so: it would all be so easy if one side was just wrong. But that’s not the case here. Jews really have lived there uninterrupted for millennia, the majority of Israelis really are MENA Jews, and European Jews really are indigenous to MENA.

As for the rest of the images: they are all just plans. The Palestinian Authorities do not agree with any of these maps: they want the whole thing shaded Palestine with no Jews. A single Palestinian state. So they have not lost land because they never agreed to that split in the first place.

And finally, the bit you never get told: WHY do the Palestinians keep getting offered less and less every time? The reason is, every time these plans were put to both parties, Israel has AGREED. Israel even agreed to the first plan which gave only 20% of the land to the 30% Jews. And every time Palestine refused and started a war of eradication. Israel won those wars, and as a result entered the next negotiations from a position of strength. The lesson? Don’t start wars.

If you want more info on why this graphic is misleading, I encourage you to look it up. There is a lot more detail than I can include here.

@stormy4319trevor if it is not Palestine, they are not Palestinians.
But they are people that have been living on that land for generations, so they must be Israelis. So why don't they have the same rights as other Israelis?

Or does Israel have some sort of really weird apartheid going on?

Sorry. I don't follow - are you replying to someone else maybe?

Sorry meant to be for @stomachameleon

I think there is confusion because the word “apartheid” gets bandied about a lot when in fact Israel is a multicultural society, even more so than the UK. Something like only 70-75% Israelis are Jewish. There are Israeli Arabs including Palestinians who have equal rights and even hold elected office or serve in the IDF! There are also Samaritans, Druze, Bedouin, Christians, etc. Israeli Jews themselves are also very diverse. “Israeli” means someone from the state of Israel, it’s not a synonym for Israeli Jews.