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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Detainees, Truce and Agreements *title altered at OP's request*

971 replies

stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 15:49

Continuing broad discussion of the release of detainees, hostages and prisoners and the agreements around this.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
59
Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:30

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:21

Yes the timeline has been very clear and it is clear who was not remembering Oct 7th’s timeline or what was destroyed.

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You seem to be very blurred on what Hamas did and does know about the 7th October or willing following a narrative that they were innocent victims in th pogrom. They clearly knew what was going to happen on that day and the next few days. It wasn't a surprise to them at all.

Sorry but that is how your posts read on this.

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:32

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:24

Not just Hamas but all of Gaza as reported in all the media about phone blackouts. That is a fact. Sorry I figured everyone knew about the phone blackouts

Like I said this doesn't make a difference to them because the tunnels are fitted with old fashioned phone lines. This is so Israel can't stop them from communicating and because the tunnels don't always have a signal

You are over looking the fact that they knew that they would attack and take hostages on the 7th October.

They knew Israel would retaliate on the 7th October when they started firing rockets at Israel

The first lot of hostages said they had everything set up and planned about how the hostages were cared for in advance and which Hamas fighters were paid to look after them etc

This was not chaotic or a surprise to Hamas. Hamas already knew this was coming and what would happen in those first few days. However what happens after the Arabs leaders met with Israel and since then I think is way more than Hamas thought possible

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You do know that if you are dead under a pile of rubble, you cannot answer a ringing phone? Assuming it works.

I am not overlooking any facts. I am stating the fact that war is chaos. Ask any military expert. No one can predict what will happen once you embark on an attack. Not Israel. Not Hamas. Hamas can’t know which buildings Israel is going to destroy that might bury a terror cell with hostahes under rubble. Neither can Israel know which buildings there are Hamas cells are sheltering with hostages either in or under. That’s the point. It may not be a lie or a claim, after so much nonstop bombing and chaos, it is possible they have lost contact with some of their cells.

Did you never read any military history? Every war anywhere at anytime you have this issue of losing contact with parts of your side or allies due to the chaos of war.

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:33

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:25

Please link to these Qatar statements. I cannot recall them saying anything like this.

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For a start the last one I linked to above and after that just Google what the Qatarguy in charge is saying about the negotiations

I am not your teacher. Do some research on it

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:34

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:32

You do know that if you are dead under a pile of rubble, you cannot answer a ringing phone? Assuming it works.

I am not overlooking any facts. I am stating the fact that war is chaos. Ask any military expert. No one can predict what will happen once you embark on an attack. Not Israel. Not Hamas. Hamas can’t know which buildings Israel is going to destroy that might bury a terror cell with hostahes under rubble. Neither can Israel know which buildings there are Hamas cells are sheltering with hostages either in or under. That’s the point. It may not be a lie or a claim, after so much nonstop bombing and chaos, it is possible they have lost contact with some of their cells.

Did you never read any military history? Every war anywhere at anytime you have this issue of losing contact with parts of your side or allies due to the chaos of war.

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Again

Finding out the names of all hostages and they were in the first few days is what I said.

Then at least they could confirm who they had. That is if they don't already know and aren't playing stuff mind games as some suspect

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:38

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 21:30

Not just Hamas but all of Gaza as reported in all the media about phone blackouts. That is a fact. Sorry I figured everyone knew about the phone blackouts

But that didn’t happen at the start of the war did it? I remember that being about a week and a half in.

Yes I remember it like that too

What I was saying to the other poster is that Hamas had time in the first few days to make sure they knew the names of all hostages (Especially children and Women) in the first couple of days.

That even if a mobile network blackout like reported has happened then use old fashioned phone lines in the tunnels anyway

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:40

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:30

You seem to be very blurred on what Hamas did and does know about the 7th October or willing following a narrative that they were innocent victims in th pogrom. They clearly knew what was going to happen on that day and the next few days. It wasn't a surprise to them at all.

Sorry but that is how your posts read on this.

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I think you are the only person reading my posts in such a fashion. Perhaps think on why posting time stamped facts from the Israeli army enrages you so much.

Parkingt111 · 26/11/2023 21:43

I am assuming the hostages had to be moved around. I am also not sure if all were for example also kept in the tunnels
It's possible that at the beginning they had more of an idea but at this stage they don't
Again all possibilities
Due to the severe bombardment and much of the north literally turned into rubble it gives a higher possibility that they had to be moved around
For a few days the health ministry which is essentially Hamas also stopped updating death of civilians because they were unable to get the information

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:43

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:34

Again

Finding out the names of all hostages and they were in the first few days is what I said.

Then at least they could confirm who they had. That is if they don't already know and aren't playing stuff mind games as some suspect

Edited
Show quote history

Right, then you are assuming the hostages have not been moved as a resulting of the bombing. How can you think that knowing where they were on Oct 8th means they have to know where they are now? After 24/7 bombing for over a month? And ground battles with tanks for one month?

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 21:45

For a start the last one I linked to above and after that just Google what the Qatarguy in charge is saying about the negotiations

We can’t read it Truly it’s behind a paywall. I’ve already looked for other articles and I honestly can’t find any. There was this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67536423.amp

but it didn’t mention any hostages being missing.

Naama Weinberg, wearing a t-shirt for her cousin Itai. "The healing process is going to be extremely difficult," she said.

For many hostage families, the painful wait drags on - BBC News

There was a mix of hope and fear this weekend for the families of hostages expected to remain in Gaza.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67536423.amp

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:45

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:40

I think you are the only person reading my posts in such a fashion. Perhaps think on why posting time stamped facts from the Israeli army enrages you so much.

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Now you are just scratching in a barrel

I am talking about what is happening and has happened. You are trying to push a oh dear Hamas was taken by surprise and it was all so chaotic for Hamas narrative that is clearly not the case.

I would ask yourself why you want to believe that narrative and why you what to believe what Hamas is saying about the hostages in general too. Most of us are sceptical about what Hamas says at best.

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:48

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:43

Right, then you are assuming the hostages have not been moved as a resulting of the bombing. How can you think that knowing where they were on Oct 8th means they have to know where they are now? After 24/7 bombing for over a month? And ground battles with tanks for one month?

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I haven't said that. I have said Hamas claims not to know be able to provide a list of names for hostages. They also claim they don't know who has some of the hostages

Everything else you have made up in your head to suit a narrative of me it seems

Parkingt111 · 26/11/2023 21:49

Also some of the hostages are held by PIJ and not Hamas.
Someone mentioned in another thread that the two groups don't always get on and sometimes work together and sometimes against each other
They would need to get the information from them and the PIJ would have to be willing to give it
Saying all that we all know it's not above Hamas or the PIJ to lie especially when they said one of the hostages had died who has now been released

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:49

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:48

I haven't said that. I have said Hamas claims not to know be able to provide a list of names for hostages. They also claim they don't know who has some of the hostages

Everything else you have made up in your head to suit a narrative of me it seems

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Have you read your posts?

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 21:51

I am talking about what is happening and has happened
With all due respect how can you know either of those things. Really we can only speculate.

Hamas are organised, yes and they did have a plan but I don’t think it’s grasping at straws to suggest that the bombardment may of derailed these plans somewhat.

Original poster
stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 21:52

So does this mean if Hamas doesn't find them by Monday the truce/pause/whatsit is over? Sorry, I'm feeling a bit brain fried.

OP posts:
Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:52

Parkingt111 · 26/11/2023 21:43

I am assuming the hostages had to be moved around. I am also not sure if all were for example also kept in the tunnels
It's possible that at the beginning they had more of an idea but at this stage they don't
Again all possibilities
Due to the severe bombardment and much of the north literally turned into rubble it gives a higher possibility that they had to be moved around
For a few days the health ministry which is essentially Hamas also stopped updating death of civilians because they were unable to get the information

I agree

But the argument here is that Hamas claim to have never had names of all the hostages. Something even Qatar seems sceptical about. Plus obviously in the first couple of days you would have expected them to work out which groups had which hostages at the very least. I mean people keep trying to imply on various threads that Hamas has been looking after the hostages well etc

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:55

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 21:51

I am talking about what is happening and has happened
With all due respect how can you know either of those things. Really we can only speculate.

Hamas are organised, yes and they did have a plan but I don’t think it’s grasping at straws to suggest that the bombardment may of derailed these plans somewhat.

I am going on the things reporting and said by Hamas and Qatar too. Nothing I have said isn't about what is available via media reports.

It is all we can go on therefore it is what we know has happened and is happening

BabaBarrio · 26/11/2023 21:55

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:45

Now you are just scratching in a barrel

I am talking about what is happening and has happened. You are trying to push a oh dear Hamas was taken by surprise and it was all so chaotic for Hamas narrative that is clearly not the case.

I would ask yourself why you want to believe that narrative and why you what to believe what Hamas is saying about the hostages in general too. Most of us are sceptical about what Hamas says at best.

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No I am not at all. It’s not a narrative to state the chaotic nature of war documented in every textbook on every war that has ever happened. It is also not a narrative to correct your two days down to the two hours, linking to the Israel reports saying so.

I have posted no narrative. You on the other hand have built some impressive sandcastles.

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 21:58

stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 21:52

So does this mean if Hamas doesn't find them by Monday the truce/pause/whatsit is over? Sorry, I'm feeling a bit brain fried.

The agreement was only until Monday. Once all 50 hostages and the 150 prisoners have been swapped the pause ends

Qatar is saying that Israel will be willing to extend the pause but Hamas need to find 40 hostages which they say are lost. If they find them a further pause can be negotiated

Original poster
stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 22:00

Thanks Truly. Hope for the best, I suppose.

OP posts:
Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 22:02

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 21:56

Also some of the hostages are held by PIJ and not Hamas

Well I’d never even heard of them. So are they the ones who have the hostages Hamas has been instructed to retrieve?

I found this but I can’t read it either. Still for anyone signed up to The Wall Street Journal

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip-2023-11-21/card/palestinian-islamic-jihad-says-it-won-t-release-its-israeli-hostages-EZyNJwMid7qorXrI9dyz

Yes there are a few Jihad groups in Gaza like the Qatar article I posted spoke about

Hamas is coordinating with three other Jihad groups about the release of hostages according to Qatar.

Parkingt111 · 26/11/2023 22:02

@Reallifelurker yes it's been mentioned in a few reports now that some hostages are held by the PIJ. How many I don't know. I also don't know if this has been verified although saying that how exactly can this be verified

I would think even if Hamas didn't know exactly how many with the names to the exact figure I would think they would atleast know the majority.
But I don't have much knowledge on how they operate so that's just my own speculation and I could be totally wrong

Reallifelurker · 26/11/2023 22:02

Nothing I have said isn't about what is available via media reports.

I would imagine BabaBarrio could say the same though. People interpret things differently and really we don’t know who’s got it right.

Trulywonderful · 26/11/2023 22:02

stormy4319trevor · 26/11/2023 22:00

Thanks Truly. Hope for the best, I suppose.

Yes definitely fingers crossed