Detainees, Truce and Agreements *title altered at OP's request*

[stormy4319trevor]

Continuing broad discussion of the release of detainees, hostages and prisoners and the agreements around this.

That's another untruth I see only on Mumsnet. All the news I read and see says exactly what you've just said but in the Mumsnet parallel universe Hamas are the ones who don't want a ceasefire. Ridiculous.

Yes it can be confusing to read several news sources and then read something completely different on MN.

meaning a sustainable and lasting end to the war.

@MercanDede it's almost like why start one in the first place?

Living under tyranny, as the Americans put it, is a valid reason to start a war with your rulers. By saying there was good reason to start a war, I am not condoning the way Hamas went about it by committing war crimes and atrocities.

Israel has not physically been in Gaza for twenty years.
Hamas took over by bloody means.
The only revolution and tyranny that needs overthrowing is within.

Loving the caveat btw. Not necessary.

@stomachameleon just to explain, the reason posters add a caveat is because some other posters often say they support Hamas if they don't add it, as has happened many many times on these boards. Maybe you missed that over the last few weeks.

The last time Israel was in Gaza was in 2014. Other than that, there have been repeated airstrikes on Gazans, killing mostly civilians.

In my opinion, the occupation of Gaza by Israel is just as tyrannical as the British rule over its colonies. Such tyranny is fertile ground for extremist terrorist organisations to flourish within the occupied.

The caveat is necessary because it is good to be very clear in saying that while a purpose is just- Palestinians fighting Israel’s occupation and Israel fighting the terrorism of Hamas- the means by which they fight for justice matters even more than the end goal. Especially when the means causes the death of innocent people.

We apply similar morals to almost any action in life, that is why we say the end never justifies the means.

Sorry @MercanDede I wasn't clear at the end. I meant you have said that before and I don't think many of any posters on here are pro Hamas.

Going back to the crux of your post rockets have continued to be fired into Israel too. People have to live in houses with safe rooms or bomb shelters. This is not a one way street.

And I feel the anger is misplaced. How dare Hamas hide behind civilians?

@Stomacharmeleon are you really claiming that Israel hasn't been blockading and controlling Gaza since they "withdrew"? Come on now. If we're not willing to admit to some basic facts about the conflict then what's the point in debating it here.

Hamas has caused this. Of course it wants a complete end to hostilities ie Israel to give up. If Israel gives up then all Israel's enemies will see that as a green light that you can go into Israel, kill 1,200 including babies and get away with it.

@MercanDede I guess what I am asking is what is Hamas looking for long term aims? Not considering a pause but wanting a ceasefire after fighting in a way that causes the maximum possible harm to its own civilians.
So then asking me to believe a ceasefire is for 'humanity' is puzzling. They don't seem to have an issue with humanity when they hide, rape and murder?

Yes, Hamas has been firing rockets, almost as if the war did not start on October 7th but has been a decades long, drawn out war?

I don’t think Hamas are hiding behind civilians. They are under siege in Gaza. They cannot come out of Gaza and fight IDF on an Israeli plain as a battlefield. When they did break out of Gaza, and Israeli military posts and civilian homes were destroyed, that lasted less than 24hrs before they were driven back into Gaza, encircled and put under siege.

Saying they are hiding behind civilians when they are now pushed back into their home ground, and are being invaded by a full ground assault- why are you not applying the same logic to Ukraine? Ukrainian soldiers aren’t hiding behind civilians because Russia is fighting their way inside Ukraine town by town, city by city.

There is no evidence Hamas have used civilians as human shields during the current battles in Gaza. Instead, we have seen numerous cases of IDF assuming a civilian is Hamas or hiding Hamas within them and massacring civilians, including escaped Israeli hostages and children/babies in hospitals.

Hamas did not kill the 20,000+ civilians. The evidence and analysis being published by independent experts and observers is clear, IDF is fighting in a way that inflicts the maximum damage on Palestinian civilians when it could have been avoided. Of course a ceasefire is for humanity, as every day brings more death to both sides, senseless, pointless death because all wars end in a ceasefire. They have gone past the point to where much of Gaza is now uninhabitable, this is a scorched Earth campaign and has been for weeks.

You are making it sound as if Hamas have no choice in the matter and there are no options for them.

When they did break out of Gaza, and Israeli military posts and civilian homes were destroyed, that lasted less than 24hrs before they were driven back into Gaza, encircled and put under siege. @MercanDede

When was that then? When did that happen?

They absolutely hide behind civilians. They hide underneath them and above them. Why are their no civilians apart from the Israel hostages in the vast Expanse of tunnels? They are only for Terrorist use. Not to save their women and children.

They continue to fire rockets not from the battlefield but from infrastructure then cry foul when it's bombed. Don't send rockets then.

And I believe the Ukraine situation is different In that they leave to the surrounding countries who welcomed them with open arms.

I don’t agree. Your logic is quite disturbing. No one is going to look at this and think oh, if I start a war then Israel will kill 20 of my ethnicity for every Israeli I kill. Wow that’s a huge green light, I totally want to bring this level of destruction to my ethnicity. Israel has made the don’t fuck with us or we will destroy your race point very clearly. They do not need to continue until it is 200 Palestinians dead for every Israeli killed by Hamas.

Hamas have no choice? You can’t wish away a siege and an army fighting you town by town within a territory.

That was October 7th. Did you not know that the bulk of their attacks were on IDF military targets? That the kibbutzim were the secondary target to acquire hostages and the music Nova festival was a target of opportunity?

Two reasons why 1) You can’t fit 2.3 million people in the tunnels under Gaza, and 2) if they did let civilians in the tunnels which are being used for their fighting, then that would be using human shields. They were built before Hamas existed to smuggle in goods that Israel would not let through from 1967 onwards. They are smuggler tunnels. The fact Hamas is using them AND not letting civilians be in them is following international law for warfare.

“They continue to fire rockets not from the battlefield but from infrastructure then cry foul when it's bombed.” The battlefield is URBAN. There is no field. The problem is that IDF has bombed much infrastructure from which no rocket was fired, including civilian infrastructure that is off limits to bombing due to special protections afforded by the Geneva convention. Of course the UN and MSF and Amnesty Internatinal and HRW among dozens of other are crying foul. The crying foul is from all the referees, not just Hamas.

”And I believe the Ukraine situation is different In that they leave to the surrounding countries who welcomed them with open arms.” Ukranian civilians are allowed to flee the war, Gazan civilians are not. Israel could have easily used their already fortified checkpoints and allowed civilians to be evacuated into Israel. But no, they forced ALL the civilians to stay and be massacred. They didn’t even allow children to be evacuated.

So does the 20 days for a progress report start today?

UN chief appoints Sigrid Kaag as Gaza humanitarian relief coordinator

Great post.

@braticus I didn't even waste my time answering that post as most of it is just plan apologist and factually incorrect.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Is Sigrid Kaag in Gaza right now? As I have seen that Israel won't be giving UN members permission to go into Gaza. Or unless an exception is made

@Parkingt111 that's not what I read. They have said in Israel they will be doing them on a case by case basis

Oh ok i must have misunderstood 👍

She's the deputy PM of the Netherlands and will be taking up the post on 8th Jan - no hurry then!

Who knows what will happen about a visa after the Israeli ambassadors speech following the UN vote and then today

''Israel will no longer grant automatic visas to United Nations employees, after accusing the global body of being “complicit partners” in Hamas’s tactics.

I know people are prone to the dramatics but they did explain why and it does make sense.
Things have carried on and not been spoken about. Hamas have been able to get with a lot as well as unwra.