Israel has bombed the front of a hospital / 2

[Readingallnight]

Discussion re Israel’s bombing of hospitals, infrastructure and residential buildings

Sorry the bit of film did'nt attach

@Efacsen that's even worse than expected
I was afraid that once the truce happens then we would see much more horrors of what has been happening. I think that's still limited because of not being allowed in the North
Will the WHO do anything today? How can it be allowed for ill patients to be left stranded in the car park

IDK Not convinced that these patients aren't waiting in the car-park for the ambulances that the UN sent yesterday

And Al J isn't trying to stir things up

TheWHO haven’t had access as yet.

Tha ambulances didn’t arrive till the early hours as they weren’t allowed into the North.
The images of their arrival showed it was dark.
So hopefully now people are being helped out

Any news on the state of the Indonesian hospital. I understand the IDF left yesterday but is it functioning, has aid arrived. I can’t find anything on its fate.

There was a clip on Al jazeera earlier - lots of destruction and dead bodies

Might be wrong but think IDF have left tho' maybe only for the duration of the ceasefire

It’s not really useful at all. A legal system without an effective police force to enforce it is pointless. It’s why international law is a bit of a shambles- without international police it doesn’t really mean anything. The US has, to an extent, acted as the world’s defacto police force for the last few decades, but many people don’t like that and it does appear to be becoming too expensive to carry on.

It may be unpopular, but since the 2nd WW the whole world has lived through an unprecedented period of relative peace. A single hyperpower has resulted in the most peaceful stretch in human history. Constant war is the norm for humans. The collapse of the US hegemony promises to unleash a particularly bloody period. The establishment of a cadre of “great powers” simply ended up with the world wars.

Some positive news
the plane will also have 30 specialist doctors

Plane turned into 'flying hospital' to rescue wounded children from GazaA plane sent to the Egypt-Gaza border will "effectively become a flying hospital".
Our special correspondent Alex Crawford is on one of the first mercy missions organised by the United Arab Emirates to rescue seriously wounded children from Gaza.
It is loaded with stretchers "in case they have to deal with people who have become paralysed from the trauma they've endured", Crawford said.

@Hiddenmnetter thank you for taking the time out for that explanation.
So in this instance there really isn't much that will be done about potential war crimes?
I know they can already be quite difficult to prove and something that can take years

Great news.

Al Jazeera persisting with the story that patients have been abandoned outside al shifa

The pictures are dreadful if you want to go and look at them - not really suitable to post here

There aren't any ambulances as I'd hoped

If you want someone tried at the ICC, you need them to be captured, held and transported to The Hague. Really whichever ruler it is also needs to be from a country that is a signatory to those conventions. It’s all a bit meaningless though. Let’s say you captured Putin and put him on trial for war crimes in Ukraine- then he got a good lawyer and there was some technicality where he “got off” (I don’t know the rules of ICC trials). But would it really matter? I hardly imagine anyone would think “oh well he had a full and fair trial”. Everyone would just think “that’s utter horseshit he’s obviously guilty and needs to be punished”. Also the only way it’s happening is if the Russian military has already been defeated, in which case Putin has already probably fallen backwards out of a 10 storey high window after accidentally forcing his way through the metal bars after accidentally drinking a very hot cup of Polonium infused tea.

To get worked up about “war crimes” is largely meaningless. We hope that militaries conduct themselves within limits and don’t use things like rape and torture, but if a military does rape and torture it’s way through an enemy population, the only way it’s getting punished is when it’s been defeated, in which case a large portion of the military has already been killed. And who wants to pay the cost of imprisoning the soldiers of say, the Russian federation? It would cost an absolute fortune and be largely impractical. There’s a reason most of those found guilty at the Nuremberg trials were executed.

What is happening in Gaza isn’t really about war crimes, or not. The fact of the matter is there will be no push to try and capture and try those members of Hamas who were involved in the planning or execution of the October 7 raid, nor will there be any interest in extracting any of the Israeli leadership for their reaction. At the end of this, either the Hamas structure will be eradicated or not. If they are, then that will be the end of it until IJ, MB or some other group starts attacking.

On the Israeli side, realistically once this conflict is over I would expect Netenyahu to lose his premiership. He’s known as a political survivor, so maybe he will, I’m not that well versed in Israeli domestic politics but I think that being the Premier of an intelligence failure on that level is not something you’re likely to recover from.

There was a suggestion of ships on the 17th unfortunately it didn’t happen

I thought I read ambulances had been sent to Al shifa.
Perhaps they never got there? Or ???

@Hiddenmnetter Thank you for explaining that. It
Even if they don't get tried for war crimes if the ICC serve warrants then is that just a sort of condemnation or to show the severity of the situation

I read I think last week that two former ICC prosecutors wanted the ICC to issue warrants for members of the Israeli government and military for 'indiscriminate bombardment of civilian areas'

It came to mind as I read this in the guardian today which implied that president Biden acknowledged that there was 'lessons to be learnt' and that's putting it very mildly in the North of Gaza

Jake Sullivan, the US national security adviser, has been restating the Biden administration line on the extension of the Israel ground offensive to southern Gaza, as it is widely expected to do after the hostage ceasefire.
The US is insisting that the campaign in the south, where Gaza residents were told by the Israeli government to take shelter, should look very different from in the north, where there were mass civilian casualties. At the time the administration did not directly criticise the Israeli forces for their conduct in the north, but in his CBS News Face the Nation interview, Sullivan said there were lessons to be learned.
“The United States is hoping to see – and frankly what I believe Israel is hoping to see – is the conditions being set whereby any military action only takes place after civilians have been accounted for and have the opportunity to be in safety, to have access to humanitarian assistance, and to be out of the way of any military operation that is conducted.
“That’s the conversation we’re having with the Israelis right now. It’s a constructive conversation and the details of it will remain behind closed doors but the basic notion is that continuing military operations should learn lessons from the north, to be applied in any further undertakings.”

@Parkingt111 what does it do? It’s political posturing. The Israeli government would simply ask where the ICC warrants are for the leaders of Hamas (who, keep in mind, are the democratically elected leaders of Gaza). What does issuing warrants for them achieve? If the IDF ever gets their hands on them they’re dead anyway. Wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if Mossad are not even now trying to hunt them down. If Hamas ever get their hands on any Israeli politicians they’re dead. It’s just posturing. Without a legitimate political order to enforce laws, they’re just moonbeams, and international law is exactly that.

The details will remain behind closed doors,
But it seems that the US will not acknowledge or criticise openly
They have been abit more frank about some of their stances even when it contradicts Netanyahu but I can't see them accepting that any crimes had taken place
I imagine it will be downplayed as 'unfortunate mistakes'

Unfortunately with no infrastructure remaining in the North there is no where for civilians to go, if they are pushed out of the South
There has been discussion that they should go to an area on the Southwest coast. This area Is covered in palm trees and sand. There is no infrastructure, electricity or water. There is nothing there. Plus the area in itself is simply too small to accommodate such huge numbers of displaced Palestinians.

@Hiddenmnetter oh yes they did ofcourse also say for Hamas too but the crimes are more obvious I don't think those can be contested

@Hiddenmnetter ok I see where you are coming from thank you

@Hiddenmnetter I firmly believe that Mossad are on the case so to speak. Tbh I expect it of them. If they can track down Nazi's twenty/ thirty years after the fact that's the least they can do.

Wounded patients left at al-Shifa Hospital face dire conditions https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/11/26/wounded-patients-left-at-al-shifa-hospital-face-dire-conditions

@Readingallnight it's a shame the American floating hospitals didn't happen but I think the plane one is more likely as they showed pictures of it from the inside so it looks like it's ready
Probably working out the logistics

So sad.
These children are probably without their parents too as they were told to leave.