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Conflict in the Middle East

Ethnic cleansing

247 replies

beachcitygirl · 11/11/2023 18:27

Netanyahu has confirmed that Gaza will be occupied by Israel when the bombing stops, with no role for the UN.

Now tell me how this isn't ethnic cleansing ?

x.com/beckettunite/status/1723323988963688959?s=46&t=CDaDBOo42AUxl1VZxDymlA

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æterofax · 12/11/2023 17:19

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

SinnerBoy · 12/11/2023 22:37

Xenia · Today 14:53

Hamas brought all this down on the heads of its people. We reap what we sow in life.

Well, the anti Palestinian bias and hatred is strong in that post, isn't it?

What has Israel sown, by constant illegal expansion and expropriation of Palestinian land, for their own to take over and live on? It wasn't done with cuddly, fluffy kid gloves, it was done by violence.

Gaza is less than a quarter of the size it was in 1967. Where is the other three quarters of it? Illegally subsumed into Israel.

I absolutely despise Hamas and denounce what they did a few short weeks ago, but why do you expect the Palestinians to be brutalised and throw off their land and not to react?

Green777 · 12/11/2023 22:45

Just look to what’s happening now in the West Bank for your answers on why they shouldn’t.

Committing a bloodthirsty revenge on civilians therefore ensuring generations of future terrorists springs to mind as another.

A superpower subjugating a people they deplore and view as sun human might be another reason why it’s a bad idea

Green777 · 12/11/2023 22:47

@Xenia

Still going with the ‘well they deserve it’ rhetoric I see?

In what world do you think it’s okay to starve, withhold water and bomb innocent children?

Apologist

notsoready4school · 12/11/2023 22:54

EasternStandard · 12/11/2023 08:19

Hamas won’t disappear that willingly so you’ll have an issue with how to govern with their continued presence and aims

As for people being happy I don’t think all get a say, particularly women.

People in the Middle East don’t care if women get a say. You might not have visited Dubai, Qatar, Kuwait and what used to be Iraq. But no one really gets a say but they are all happy with the status quo.

They get to go about their business without fear of their kids being kidnapped as long as they stay within the clearly articulated law and no one cares. Even the people from western states who go and settle there as expatriates become the same in time and don’t care. As long as you don’t intimidate them and let them go about their business earning a living in peace.

Also Hamas will disappear when you no longer have enough people who can so easily be manipulated to this ideology. Unfortunately the damage Israel has done already probably has created enough new Hamas members (worldwide, not just in Palestine) to create an army. So yes there are valid concerns but they aren’t going to be called ´Hamas’ after this, they will rebrand.

TheABC · 12/11/2023 23:06

Thinking out loud, who could go in?
First things first, we need a ceasefire, a mountain of aid and more for everyone who has been displaced.

Israel as a peacekeeping force is a terrible idea. It would be the West Bank problems on steroids. I'm not talking about the settler attacks either - just the basic movement of people between the three sections in that territory.

The UN doesn't keep an army on hand; so it would be soldiers from other countries (Arab nations maybe?). Then what? The PLO on the West Bank are resistant, Egypt doesn't want direct rule and there have been no elections since 2006, so there's no viable opposition to Hamas.

What is the best way out of this mess? How can the Palestinians rebuild?

notsoready4school · 13/11/2023 00:49

Well Netanyahu has now made his intentions crystal clear.

Ecdysiast · 13/11/2023 02:57

The Israelis have made their objectives crystal clear. If anyone needs a recap, check out this video:
https://x.com/kthalps/status/1723538810221338973?s=20

https://x.com/kthalps/status/1723538810221338973?s=20

SinnerBoy · 13/11/2023 05:44

Ecdysiast · Today 02:57

The Israelis have made their objectives crystal clear. If anyone needs a recap, check out this video:

https://x.com/kthalps/status/1723538810221338973?s=20

If anyone watches that and claims that Israel is simply defending itself, then my contempt for them will know no bounds; I certainly could not post an honest opinion of them here.

If that military looking man in the car is an actual commander and not just dressed up, he's committed a war crime, by giving an instruction to massacre civilians.

How can anyone defend that?

https://x.com/kthalps/status/1723538810221338973?s=20

queenofarles · 13/11/2023 07:58

That sounds for the best. Hamas has made such a mess of Gaza having more Israeli control of it will be a good thing. Hamas brought all this down on the heads of its people. We reap what we sow in life. The Hamas murder of 1400 is the Israeli 9/11. Democracies are not passive lambs. If our Western values are attacked then we react with force to preserve our freedoms - we did so in WWII including with a nuclear bomb and carpet bombing of Dresden. The US did after 9/11 in invade Afghanistan and here we have Israel similarly protecting herself in Gaza

i just love how a western person who probably hasn’t been there let alone met any people from Gaza knows what’s best for them , like they don’t have a say in their Future.

And please don’t bring in Afghanistan into Your useless debate, as we all know after many years of fighting and deaths on both sides Taliban are back there with the blessings and recognition of the US.

EasterIssland · 13/11/2023 08:06

A thread about how idf entered in a house took the women and kids as shields and took the men somewhere else. I’ve seen another thread (in Spanish) about how idf are posting pics of Hamas members when in fact they’re these men

https://twitter.com/ShaimaZiara/status/1723532251026043276

https://twitter.com/ShaimaZiara/status/1723532251026043276

BelleHathor · 13/11/2023 08:24

EasterIssland · 13/11/2023 08:06

A thread about how idf entered in a house took the women and kids as shields and took the men somewhere else. I’ve seen another thread (in Spanish) about how idf are posting pics of Hamas members when in fact they’re these men

https://twitter.com/ShaimaZiara/status/1723532251026043276

Fucking hell! my heart bleeds for her family. Nothing moral about thise IDF monsters.

Itllbefine6 · 13/11/2023 09:53

I don't understand Israel's stance here. If the UN doesn't step in and sort something out, Israel is always going to be the 'bad guy', the occupying force. I guess thd UN's refusal to condemn the October 11 massacre has rather spoiled it's supposedly neutral stance, though 🤔

Alcemeg · 13/11/2023 10:05

Reallifelurker · 12/11/2023 15:53

Where on earth do you read that "it was mostly the fault of random civilians"?! This was a Hamas raid. But one in which, clearly, large numbers of random civilians are confirmed to have enthusiastically participated.

I doubt it. But hey if the civilians are evil too why not just bomb the whole lot of them eh? Cos it won’t matter if they’re all as bad as each other Hmm

What I'm saying is that people who look like ordinary civilians are taking part in Hamas activities. You're saying they're Hamas, whether they look like civilians or not.

You see the problem?

TheresaOfAvila · 13/11/2023 11:49

Alcemeg · 12/11/2023 09:28

Some of them must have been, but by no means all.

At 01:11 , the Muslim journalist and women's rights activist Dr Qanta Ahmed, who was invited to the 45-min screening of the atrocities, says it's clear that hundreds and perhaps thousands of civilians repeatedly crossed the border to participate in the 7 October attacks.

From 07:24 , a survivor of the Nova festival describes most of the looting and raping being carried out by ordinary Gazan civilians. Hamas wore bulletproof vests and carried guns, but the rest were "people just like you and me, in blue jeans and sneakers," who flooded in with pickup trucks etc. At 15:24, she repeatedly emphasizes that it was civilians who raped and burned women alive.

At 01:30 , another Nova survivor, refers to "the terrorists" and then corrects himself to "people from Gaza" when describing the way they raped and butchered girls, either stabbing them to death after/during the rape or before it. They used knives, not guns.

I suspect it was the civilians who took the scalps, eyes, limbs, lips, breasts etc back to Gaza, to show off as hunting trophies, like Shani Louk's body. The predatory excitement is visible and audible e.g. . How many of these look like trained Hamas operatives to you?

Those acts are disgusting, criminal and beyond contempt.

You do however seem to be suggesting that the atrocities carried out by HAMAS and/or Gazans is in and of itself sufficient justification for ethnic cleansing in Gaza and bombing hospitals.

I appreciate you don’t see it as ethnic cleansing, but do you see this as justification for the acts you know other people describe using that term- even if you don’t.

æterofax · 13/11/2023 11:53

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Alcemeg · 13/11/2023 12:25

TheresaOfAvila · 13/11/2023 11:49

Those acts are disgusting, criminal and beyond contempt.

You do however seem to be suggesting that the atrocities carried out by HAMAS and/or Gazans is in and of itself sufficient justification for ethnic cleansing in Gaza and bombing hospitals.

I appreciate you don’t see it as ethnic cleansing, but do you see this as justification for the acts you know other people describe using that term- even if you don’t.

You can call it "ethnic cleansing" if you like, but if Israel wants to protect itself against this kind of terrorism - and Hamas have promised plenty more where that came from - then they are fighting a war with an opponent who not only uses civilians as human shields, but also merges seamlessly in and out of civilian life: either because they disguise themselves as civilians (if you accept Reallifelurkers' view) or because civilians enjoy the opportunity to exercise vengeance upon Israel (if you prefer aeterofax's view).

In such circumstances, it's utterly disingenuous to say "Look what they're doing to civilians!"

The pat answer to that, of course, is "But babies are being murdered!" Surely Hamas, e.g. by pulling a few strings with allies and in the countries where its leaders live, could have found a way of helping women, children, babies, elderly, etc etc etc to reach safety if they'd ever had the slightest interest in their welfare, instead of encouraging them all to stay right where they are for rather obvious reasons.

Ecdysiast · 13/11/2023 12:53

"Surely Hamas [...] could have found a way of helping women, children, babies, elderly, etc etc etc to reach safety if [...]instead of encouraging them all to stay right where they are" - @Alcemeg

And where could they go to reach safety, Alcemeg? Did you not hear the statement from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA)? They said "no place is safe in Gaza".

Keep blaming Hamas for everything. Keep defending Israel's war crimes.

TheresaOfAvila · 13/11/2023 12:54

Alcemeg · 13/11/2023 12:25

You can call it "ethnic cleansing" if you like, but if Israel wants to protect itself against this kind of terrorism - and Hamas have promised plenty more where that came from - then they are fighting a war with an opponent who not only uses civilians as human shields, but also merges seamlessly in and out of civilian life: either because they disguise themselves as civilians (if you accept Reallifelurkers' view) or because civilians enjoy the opportunity to exercise vengeance upon Israel (if you prefer aeterofax's view).

In such circumstances, it's utterly disingenuous to say "Look what they're doing to civilians!"

The pat answer to that, of course, is "But babies are being murdered!" Surely Hamas, e.g. by pulling a few strings with allies and in the countries where its leaders live, could have found a way of helping women, children, babies, elderly, etc etc etc to reach safety if they'd ever had the slightest interest in their welfare, instead of encouraging them all to stay right where they are for rather obvious reasons.

So yes, you are comfortable with ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Alcemeg · 13/11/2023 12:56

TheresaOfAvila · 13/11/2023 12:54

So yes, you are comfortable with ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

I'm not "comfortable with" anything.

EasterIssland · 13/11/2023 12:57

EasterIssland · 13/11/2023 08:06

A thread about how idf entered in a house took the women and kids as shields and took the men somewhere else. I’ve seen another thread (in Spanish) about how idf are posting pics of Hamas members when in fact they’re these men

https://twitter.com/ShaimaZiara/status/1723532251026043276

More about this story
https://twitter.com/ShaimaZiara/status/1723872472892604801

https://twitter.com/ShaimaZiara/status/1723872472892604801

Alcemeg · 13/11/2023 13:46

Ecdysiast · 13/11/2023 12:53

"Surely Hamas [...] could have found a way of helping women, children, babies, elderly, etc etc etc to reach safety if [...]instead of encouraging them all to stay right where they are" - @Alcemeg

And where could they go to reach safety, Alcemeg? Did you not hear the statement from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA)? They said "no place is safe in Gaza".

Keep blaming Hamas for everything. Keep defending Israel's war crimes.

Where did I say "in Gaza"?

Desertrose2023 · 13/11/2023 14:11

Alcemeg · 13/11/2023 13:46

Where did I say "in Gaza"?

Take a good hard look at these children. Their inevitable deaths are on Israel’s hands.

if I hear the “human shield” crap one more time I will scream. Even if you buy that pathetic justification for what Israel is doing it doesn’t excuse Israel’s actions.

the whole point of a human shield is that you’re meant to care about the human shield. You’re meant to ensure no harm comes to the human shield. Especially when the human shields are children or hospital patients or doctors!!

people have died trying to flee north Gaza, they are leaving on donkeys walking for hours and still being bombed on the way.

OuiOuiKitty · 13/11/2023 14:14

Alcemeg · 13/11/2023 13:46

Where did I say "in Gaza"?

Well Hamas were never going to help Israel to ethnically cleanse Gaza were they?

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