Israel's macabre world records: after the number of children killed, now it's the highest number of UN fatalities *ever* recorded in a *single* conflict

[Ohlalalalala]

Israel-Palestine crisis: “Enough is enough” state UN agencies, NGOs

"Almost twenty heads of United Nations agencies and partner NGOs launched a new call on Sunday for a humanitarian ceasefire. "

"Scores of aid workers have been killed since October 7 including 88 UNRWA colleagues – the highest number of United Nations fatalities ever recorded in a single conflict."

https://unric.org/en/un-israel-palestine-un-agencies-ngos/

@Alcemeg
"Give them an inch and they will take a mile. And I dread to think what that looks like."

Why dont you look at what Israeli settlers have done and that is exactly what will it look like.

The West gave Israel a country because of the crimes that they were complicit in towards Jews. It was Palestine's bad luck that it was their land. Since then Israel has been taking over sometime by inches, sometimes by metres.

And before you come up with the usual excuses:

1. Jews were already living in that land - yes, and they could have continued living there it was the forcible expulsion of the people that was the problem

2 Arabs discriminated against Jews for centuries- yes, but holocaust didnt happen in middle east.

Palestine just drew the short straw.

So be sickened by what Hamas did but be more sickened by what Israel has done and is doing

This is the most frustrating bit - people are sickened by what happened on Oct 7 but neither are they sickened by what has been happening for years and decades before oct 7 not are they sickened by what has happened before Oct 7. There must be some sort of discriminating factor in play for suck selective moral outrage. Alas, people dont lose their career and reputations when they are accused of Islamophobia; that only happens with antisemitism

@Alcemeg

Arwa Mahdawi explains it perfectly

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/07/palestinians-human-rights-israel-gaza

@Gardenowl I think the use of anti semite as a tool to silence people has already shifted and it will soon no longer have the same impact. For many people, supporting Israel will no longer be seen as supporting victims of genocide but supporting the perpetrators.

And especially that more and more Jewish people are appalled by Israel's atrocities and are voicing their support to Palestinians.

These arguments always go round in the same circles, don’t they?

You either accept that 7 Oct was an unprecedented display of deliberately sadistic savagery, by a terror organization that must be stopped, and that it is impossible to attack Hamas without killing Gazan civilians, or you don’t.

Re Russia, see e.g. here. Just one factor, among so many others, that might be complicating things... Who knows, really, what is going on behind the scenes.

@Ohlalalalala , yes there are some very brave Jewish people in Israel at the moment who are standing for decency.
I saw Shalom, Salaam on a placard somewhere and think it is wonderful. When we kill others we kill our own individual humanity, many don’t seem to care about this and carry on making the world blind while they seek an eye for an eye.

That's the problem, it is circular but very few people think (as Israel is purporting) that it began on Oct 7th. News reporting, social media etc have highlighted the oppression that Palestinians have been facing for decades. Honestly speaking, I think this takes some of the 'tragedy' element of Oct 7th off for many people. You don't kill, torture and purposely humiliate a population over decades and then get much sympathy when they retaliate. The "security measures" rhetoric is failing fast, and the government have done themselves no favour in speaking the way they have. There are more people listening now than ever before. I can't imagine when this is going to end 😭

No one is seriously entertaining the idea that Hamas is removed here. The IDF have no ace in the hole to do that, and they are a horribly casualty averse force. To do what Bibi is demanding would need them to flood Gaza with soldiers on foot, going through the tunnel complexes. It would be a massacre given the performance the frontline troops have shown. If they lose several thousand of those guys, they become combat ineffective very quickly.

Hence, they are staying in their armour and getting blasted by RPGs and losing said vehicles for little real gain.

Honestly speaking, I think this takes some of the 'tragedy' element of Oct 7th off for many people.
Really?

I don't think anyone is saying things started on 7 October. Just that 7 October reached a new level of depravity...? One that demonstrates just what Hamas is capable of (and promises to repeat)?

I'm speaking openly and calmly here, genuinely not being goady. The Israeli government and pro Israel supporters speak as if everyone was living in harmony and on 7/10 Hamas launched a totally unprovoked attack, completely out of the blue, in an attempt to wipe all Jewish people off the earth. The "depravity" of Hamas has shocked Israel to the core. When looked at from the wider context Hamas are seeking some level of revenge/to incite terror, and the death count on Israeli side is much, much lower over the span of decades of abuse, torture, detention and murder.
Security and political analysts worldwide (with the exception of course bring US and UK mostly) are looking through the wider lens and for the first time are calling out Israel for it's historic human rights abuse of Palestinians (not that it's going to do anything). People are now asking why Hamas are "depraved" but Israel can do much worse under the guise of "security measures". The government are simultaneously shouting "But Hamas!" "human shields" "it's a genocide against Jewish people!" whilst Ben Gvri and other right wingers are laughing about wanting rid of all Palestinians and that international laws don't apply to them because no one is going to stop them killing and expelling Palestinians and that they are going to turn the whole West Bank Jewish.
In the initial days I saw a tweet that said "Israel are happy with terrorism until it happens to them" or something along those lines, and it resonated very strongly. The world is finally waking up to what is happening, and it has been entirely Israel's own doing. They have openly said THEY will not accept a two state solution whilst simultaneously saying Hamas don't want peace. It has to all be on their terms or nothing.

People are now asking why Hamas are "depraved" but Israel can do much worse under the guise of "security measures".

Can you give examples of "much worse" depravity?

I know the mutual aggression goes back a long time - "security measures" from Israel, miscellaneous attacks from Gaza, missiles both ways.

I haven't heard anyone call the UN anti semetic, that's a new one...

It's mentioned on Wikipedia...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations#Bias

The UNHRC has likewise been accused of anti-Israel bias, as it has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than the rest of the world combined.[253]

@Alcemeg anti Israel not anti semetic

The highest number of UN workers killed in a conflict since its inception

I think it’s fair to say that there are unfortunate unavoidable civilian deaths in wars, but I am sure you have already read about fears of war crimes being committed by both sides? From what I have read - it comes down to what is proportionate.

You know it is possible to be both horrified by actions of Hamas on Israelis, but also be horrified by what Israeli bombs and the siege are doing in Gaza?

There was a letter by 250 senior lawyers including QCs about concerns about legality of some of Israeli actions.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/british-lawyers-call-on-government-to-press-for-ceasefire-in-gaza

Is the whole concept of "proportinate" not ever so slightly influenced/dented by dirty tactics (e.g. Hamas using civilians as human shields) and propaganda (e.g. lives treaming murders... Hamas are obviously well versed in social media)?

So you’re suggesting that people should not post what is happening in Gaza as it may result in a finding of disproportionate actions by the Israeli army in the International Criminal Courts? It’s like saying let’s hide criminal evidence of murder from the police.

Of course I imagine the International Criminal Courts will take into account tactics of Hamas. However - actions still need to be proportionate and legal experts are still calling in question legality of Israeli actions.

Don't bet on Israel complying with the ICC
in the past whenever they have even attempted to investigate any crimes Israel has totally refused to co-operate

Israel could not care less about what the UN or ICC say, as long as they have the support and money from the US they will continue to do whatever they want with impunity.

@Alcemeg
Hamas putting their own atrocities on social media is clearly not going to get them any support from sane minded people but not sure that it would affect what is proportionate - in a legal sense. For example - do Hamas’s actions on the 7th mean you deprive 1 million children of food and water?

@BelleHathor ooh great. So essentially Iran and Russia will have yet again influenced politics in the US and UK by proxy. How great another 10 years of Tory government ! How great that isolationist and general idiot Trump may win an other term !
Couldn’t make it up.

Very well said.

Maybe Palestinian children should be released from Israeli prisons. And maybe illegal settlers should give back the homes they have stolen from Palestinian families