Free the Hostages

[petuniasandpetals]

Ceasefire will happen if the hostages are freed. So why not shout and protest this instead?

Because it is usually some variation of 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free' i.e. freedom can only be achieved by destroying Israel.

It's sad you think that. Those protesting care about Palestine being free. Free from apartheid and the people living there being free from being murdered. That doesn't mean that the protesters don't care about Jews.
Isreali occupation has been dire for the Palestinans and they should be free, shouldn't they? Many Israeli people and Jewish people worldwide are against Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Why would you not want freedom for Palestinians?

That includes all the children held in Israeli prisons

I really don’t understand how the IDF’s actions are promoting the release of hostages. I can’t understand how this is a primary objective?

Bombing areas with tunnels underneath to collapse them will kill hostages held under them? I think about 50 hostages have been reported to be killed due to the bombing? Equally- as Palestinians starve and do without fresh water- so must the hostages?

There is some support from the hostages’ families to negotiate with Hamas to release Palestinians in Israeli prisons. I am sure the Israeli government would be loathed to do this, but they have done this before and I can understand why those poor Israeli families are now suggesting this be considered.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/05/israeli-hostages-relatives-call-for-concessions-to-secure-their-release

What do you think 'from the river to the sea' means?

Quite.

Which hostages are you talking about? The Israeli ones? Or the Palestinian ones?

YES! FREE THE HOSTAGES!!!

Every single one of them! Immediately, unconditionally!

Why? Because having them in the first place is a crime against humanity - releasing them is a moral as well as legal imperative!

HOWEVER, also CEASEFIRE NOW! Unconditionally, NOW!

Why? Because carpet bombing civilian areas is a crime against humanity - an immediate end to the atrocities is a moral as well as legal imperative!

And whosoever has an issue with EITHER of these demands needs to urgently get tested for a serious personality disorder of some kind!

There is such a thing as "politics" - there is also such a thing as "shared humanity"! If either of the above appears even remotely up for negotiation to you, you may be in the process of losing yours!

And while I am at it: free the hostages held by Israel, too! Having a state apparatus to rely on and calling it "administrative detention" does NOT make it morally (or legally) any more acceptable!

I can see that Israelis can find this alarming when they hear this, and although I am not protesting- I would refrain from saying this. To some extent it is besides the point that I do believe that most of the protesters don’t actually mean that Jews should be expelled from the Middle East and Israel should not be exist with its own state.

However- why don’t people criticise the far right Israeli government when they spout rhetoric calling for there to be no Palestinian state.

In 2019 Netanyahu said:

“Today, I announce my intention, after the establishment of a new government, to apply Israeli sovereignty to the Jordan Valley and the northern Dead Sea.” This means from the Jordan River to the Sea.

So- Israeli leaders can say it- but not others?

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/10/netanyahu-vows-annex-large-parts-occupied-west-bank-trump

What makes you think people dont criticise Netanyahu & the extremists in & out of his government? Every Jewish person I know with connections to Israel believes in 2 states & condemns that stuff. Its quite clear that many of the protestors dont.

I’m not convinced by the idea that Palestinians are not Hamas/do not support Hamas. Hamas are their government, in the same way that Putin governs Russia. Many Palestinians do support Hamas. Many don’t of course, but it’s not as simple as many suggest.

Thats really good to hear. It would be really good to hear people say condemn all sides trying to scupper the possibility of a 2 state solution.

But can I ask - why are Palestinians being collectively punished by Israeli with the assumption that they are all clearly pro-Hamas? They last elected Hamas in 2006.

But when the Israelis voted in their government- only recently - it wasn’t because they supported Netanyahu and his far right coalition? You can imagine what message that sends out to the Palestinians?

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

By the same standard, my dear:

In a much, much, much MORE recent election, the Israeli people voted for what ended up being a coalition that included such far-right, racial supremacist extremists as Ben-Gvir and Smotach. And Elyahu - you know, that wonderfully moderate individual who suggested dropping nukes on Gaza was a potential option, and has only been "suspended" for it, not fired, so far! And the extremist Sukot, who - despite being on the record about his rabidly racist, supremacist, ethnic cleansing fantasies - was most recently made the head of a sub-commitee for "security" within the West Bank.

As for Bibi: we all know he will literally just grasp at any straw to stay in power and defer his small (well, not SO small ...) criminal issue!

Does the presence of these people in the government of the state of Israel justify or even just excuse 7 October?

I, for one, do not think it does!

But, if I am right and it does not: how come you are not applying the same standard to Palestinian civilians?

Serious question. How many people think that Hamas, currently in power in Gaza, want a 2 state solution?

‘My dear’? What?

Opinion in Israel is mixed regarding the government, clearly. But the Israeli government has not just executed an attack that included deliberately butchering, torturing and raping civilians. They also make efforts to defend their own citizens instead of deliberately turning them into targets.

Israel is in an impossible situation because Hamas has embedded itself throughtout gazan society, infrastructure etc. The tunnels are under houses, mosques, hospitals. Hamas uses its people as himan shields. Hamas diverts food, fuel, resources to itself. Hamas has plenty of resources, they could share them with the people. They could protect their citizens. They choose not to - this is not Israel's responsibility. Can I ask you how you think Israel can destroy Hamas's military capability without civilians dying?

Israel's politics is always complicated because of lots of small parties. People cast their vote. They did not give Netanyahu an outright majority but the coalitions are always out of the control of the voters. Most commentator's I've read think Netanyahu's days are numbered

I'm not sure why Hamas's failure to hold elections is Israel's responsibility? They think over 3000 Hamas militia were involved in the october 7 attack. There were widespread celebrations of the attack in gaza. There is clearly some support for Hamas. But there needs to be a concerted effort to free pslestinians from Hamas, no doubt about it.

The idea that only Israel has agency and the poor palestinians have none so often runs through these discussions.

Yes it’s weird: there’s this idea that Palestinians have no agency at all. They are either victims of Israel or victims of Hamas. But this same narrative runs through all identity politics. Everyone is either victim or oppressor. Oppressors have complete agency and victims none.

Things have been dire for Palestinians for decades. Especially in the Gaza strip. It hasn't been "relatively peaceful" for them though yes I'm sure it has for Israelis.

And if you think that Netanyahu would call off the genocide if the hostages were released then I despair at your naivete/ignorance.

Netanyahu has said there will be a ceasefire if the hostages are released.

Bit difficult to release them if he's bombed where they are, doesn't it. What happens then? Oh wait. He doesn't actually want a ceasefire, he just wants the Palestine land without the Palestinians there. Silly me.

Totally

@Toothyfruity
Please do not despair at my ignorance! How insulting.
I do not support Netanyahu but I would like to believe he would be held to account for his statement.
Things have been dire for Palestinians because they have Hamas as their government.
I suggest you educate yourself.

Interesting

I remember a survey done in Gaza after the 2021 conflict. The majority of Gazens said they blamed Hamas for starting the conflict. Also for issues such as unemployment, utilities problems and housing issues. However they did say some things as well that were negative about Israel. So it was a mixed bag and sounded like most people had a fairly balanced view of what was happening.

I’m sure most Palestinians also find themselves in an impossible position? So an excuse for one side but not another?

50% voted for Netanyahu and far right? Would have needed a majority?

Not sure what agency Palestinians have really - as shown by the siege.

Israel of course not to blame for lack of Palestinian election- not sure why you would have thought I would implied this? But it does not mean you can presume the Palestinians are pro-Hamas.

Interesting articles on Netanyahu allowing Hamas to grow- eg allowing money to get to them, as a way of side lining the PLO when Arafat was prepared to negotiate a 2 state solution. Or were the Palestinians to blame for this too?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/