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Conflict in the Middle East

Free the Hostages

118 replies

petuniasandpetals · 05/11/2023 08:58

Ceasefire will happen if the hostages are freed. So why not shout and protest this instead?

OP posts:
inkworks273 · 05/11/2023 20:03

I wonder how many of the hostages are even still alive since Israel has bombed the shit out of the place they're being kept. The Israeli government doesn't care about the hostages. They just use them as justification for their ongoing genocide.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 05/11/2023 20:03

Ahtishoo · 05/11/2023 19:34

My dear’? What?

Opinion in Israel is mixed regarding the government, clearly. But the Israeli government has not just executed an attack that included deliberately butchering, torturing and raping civilians. They also make efforts to defend their own citizens instead of deliberately turning them into targets.

No, they have "just" been brutally opressing Palestinians for some 75 years!

That is much better, of course! Made A LOT better by the fact that Bibi has been silently proping up Hamas in order to weaken the PLO ... NOT!

If you applied ANY of the same standards to Palestinians as you do to the state of Israel, you would have to conlclude that ...

... actually, Palestinians have no "partner for peace" either. And, unlike them, their opponents have all the military means needed to make their lives hell EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Now, that notwithstanding, I shall stand by my previously stated opinion that the IMMEDIATE release of all hostages is not up for debate but a moral and legal imperative!

Also, that any civilian targets struck - on 7 October, or ever - are morally indefensible!

But also: that ALL OF THIS applies equally to Palestinians.

Now, are YOU willing to admit that it is fucking WRONG to kill 4000 children? Or are you going to maintain that "my side, right or wrong"?

Is there humanity left in YOU?

Trulywonderful · 05/11/2023 20:08

Ahtishoo · 05/11/2023 19:40

Yes it’s weird: there’s this idea that Palestinians have no agency at all. They are either victims of Israel or victims of Hamas. But this same narrative runs through all identity politics. Everyone is either victim or oppressor. Oppressors have complete agency and victims none.

It is a little odd to paint everyone as victims yes. Hamas may have the weapons but the Gazens have shown they can stand up to Hamas when they want to about some issues.

When Hamas have tried to bring in more Taliban style laws the Gazens have fought back. They rioted and protested so much that Hamas feared an uprising. Gazens said no to Hijab being made law. Gazens said no to modest dress being made law. Plus a few other things on different occasions.

Flowersfield · 05/11/2023 20:15

millymollymoomoo · 05/11/2023 09:41

Unfortunately most people protesting have no idea what they are protesting it supporting. It’s sickening. People do t know the history or reality of the brutality under Hamas. They are ISIS by another name who don’t want a two state solution. They want complete annihilation of Jews in Israel and all over. You think they’ll stop at Israel? They are a brutal state who have used their own people as shields, siphoned humanitarian aid away from the people to instead build times to launch misiles into Isreal on a daily basis.
wonrn have zero rights. Gays are killed. No freedom of press or speech, wear wrong clothes as a woman? Stoned or killed. How anyone can be out on the streets effectively supporting them makes me sick

of course, having sympathy for innocent children in Gaza caught up is one thing and something we should all be looking at ways for the international community to help, but a ceasefire is not it. Supporting Hamas is not it!

and yes more needs to be focussed on getting these hostages freed and talking about the brutality and reality of hamas. People are blind to the truth .

Are you completely deluded? I cant believe that people even HAVE to protest to stop a G E N O C I D E. Maybe stop watching mainstream media and actually do your research, look at the people actually living through this hell, children being blown to bits, people starving and being humiliated. It's driving the Israeli government crazy that people are actually waking up and seeing them for what they are and cant manipulate them easily anymore. And those they can manipulate they use the "Hamas" narrative because its the easy coward way out.

Toothyfruity · 05/11/2023 20:25

petuniasandpetals · 05/11/2023 19:58

@Toothyfruity
Please do not despair at my ignorance! How insulting.
I do not support Netanyahu but I would like to believe he would be held to account for his statement.
Things have been dire for Palestinians because they have Hamas as their government.
I suggest you educate yourself.

The West Bank isn't run by Hamas. Israel is still terrorising and killing people there. How is that not Israel's fault?

Hamas has been in charge since 2006-ish? Israel has been terrorising Gaza for decades before that.

My mother was telling me this weekend about the harassment our family experienced from Israeli forces when they lived there in the mid 80s. She said what happened to Palestinians was just unbelievable in terms of violence. 40 years later it's still going on, though it's 100 times worse now unfortunately.

Rubbishagain · 05/11/2023 20:38

petuniasandpetals · 05/11/2023 19:58

@Toothyfruity
Please do not despair at my ignorance! How insulting.
I do not support Netanyahu but I would like to believe he would be held to account for his statement.
Things have been dire for Palestinians because they have Hamas as their government.
I suggest you educate yourself.

Things have been dire for the Palestinians for a very long time. Illegal Israeli settlers have been stealing their land and homes for years. Gaza has drastically reduced in size because Israel keeps stealing land. Palestinian children are arrested daily and put in Israeli prisons. And this was before the genocide of the Palestinians. Israel has one of the most advanced military armies with equipment to track people. If they wanted to find Hamas they could easily do it without killing 10000 people.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 05/11/2023 20:44

Toothyfruity · 05/11/2023 20:25

The West Bank isn't run by Hamas. Israel is still terrorising and killing people there. How is that not Israel's fault?

Hamas has been in charge since 2006-ish? Israel has been terrorising Gaza for decades before that.

My mother was telling me this weekend about the harassment our family experienced from Israeli forces when they lived there in the mid 80s. She said what happened to Palestinians was just unbelievable in terms of violence. 40 years later it's still going on, though it's 100 times worse now unfortunately.

I am sorry that has happened to your mum, and your family!

Toothyfruity · 05/11/2023 21:00

HeidiInTheBigCity · 05/11/2023 20:44

I am sorry that has happened to your mum, and your family!

Just for the sake of clarity we're not Palestinian. My father was working there with the UN. The UN workers were constantly harrassed by the Israeli forces but it was nothing compared to what was done to the locals.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 05/11/2023 21:28

Toothyfruity · 05/11/2023 21:00

Just for the sake of clarity we're not Palestinian. My father was working there with the UN. The UN workers were constantly harrassed by the Israeli forces but it was nothing compared to what was done to the locals.

Still sorry!

It is STILL not okay, even if others have it worse!

I am British and used to be married to a Palestinian from the West Bank - never have I ever had to submit to to an "ideology test" to go see family.

OneHurtSpaggettio · 05/11/2023 22:50

petuniasandpetals · 05/11/2023 10:25

So surely "FREE THE HOSTAGES" should be the chants?

I hate Hamas but Israel should also release the Palestinian kids it captures and imprisons without a fair trial.

Up to 1,000 of the prisoners being held by Israel are Palestinian kids.

They are systematically tortured physically and mentally whilst being held.

From the article:

Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said.

Most children are beaten, handcuffed and blindfolded during arrest. They are also interrogated at unknown locations without the presence of a caregiver, and are often deprived of food, water and sleep, or access to legal counsel, according to the research. The main alleged crime for these detentions is stone throwing, which can carry a 20-year sentence in prison for Palestinian children.

60% of children experienced solitary confinement with the length of time varying from one 1 day to as long as 48 days.

Jason Lee, Save the Children’s Country Director in the occupied Palestinian territory, said:

“Each year approximately 500-700 Palestinian children come into contact with the Israeli military court system; they are the only children in the world to experience systematic prosecution in military courts. Our research shows – once again - that they are subject to serious and widespread abuse at the hands of those who are meant to be looking after them.

“There’s simply no justification for beating and stripping children, treating them like animals or robbing them of their futures. This is a child protection crisis that can no longer be ignored. There must finally be an end to this abusive military detention system.”

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian

Save the Children also created a report:

“More than half of the children consulted for this report were denied access to support and comfort from their families, and in some instances they were made to believe that their families had abandoned them – threatening a key pillar of psychological resilience, jeopardising their ability to recover.

In every respect, the Israeli military detention system appears designed to render Palestinian children defenceless.

An Israeli boy throws a stone from a settlement at a Palestinian child. In the unlikely event that he is arrested, he will be bailed. If he is questioned, it will be with full safeguards. If he is prosecuted, it will be before a juvenile court, with his parents and a lawyer present. If convicted, he will be dealt with in the community under the supervision of a professional probation service. Juvenile justice in Israel ticks all the boxes.

The Palestinian boy throws the stone back. In the small hours of the morning soldiers of the Israel Defence Force burst into his home, terrify the family, seize the child and transport him, hooded or blindfolded and face down on the floor of a military vehicle, his hands bound, across the border which separates the occupied territory of the West Bank from the state of Israel.

There, in military custody, with no access to parents or a lawyer, he may be kept in isolation for days; he will be shouted at, threatened and possibly struck by an interrogator who wants the names of other children.

He will be required to sign a confession, often in a language he doesn’t understand. If he eventually sees a lawyer, he will be advised that there is no point in pleading not guilty because practically everyone before the military juvenile courts is convicted.

It may be months, even years, before he sees his family again, and when he does he may well be permanently damaged.”

StarDolphins · 05/11/2023 22:58

millymollymoomoo · 05/11/2023 09:41

Unfortunately most people protesting have no idea what they are protesting it supporting. It’s sickening. People do t know the history or reality of the brutality under Hamas. They are ISIS by another name who don’t want a two state solution. They want complete annihilation of Jews in Israel and all over. You think they’ll stop at Israel? They are a brutal state who have used their own people as shields, siphoned humanitarian aid away from the people to instead build times to launch misiles into Isreal on a daily basis.
wonrn have zero rights. Gays are killed. No freedom of press or speech, wear wrong clothes as a woman? Stoned or killed. How anyone can be out on the streets effectively supporting them makes me sick

of course, having sympathy for innocent children in Gaza caught up is one thing and something we should all be looking at ways for the international community to help, but a ceasefire is not it. Supporting Hamas is not it!

and yes more needs to be focussed on getting these hostages freed and talking about the brutality and reality of hamas. People are blind to the truth .

I agree with this.

quiteoldad · 05/11/2023 22:59

LittleGreenDragons · said

"Netanyahu has said there will be a ceasefire if the hostages are released."

This is untrue. What he did say was

"There will be no ceasefire without the return of the hostages."

Toothyfruity · 05/11/2023 23:11

HeidiInTheBigCity · 05/11/2023 21:28

Still sorry!

It is STILL not okay, even if others have it worse!

I am British and used to be married to a Palestinian from the West Bank - never have I ever had to submit to to an "ideology test" to go see family.

Edited

An ideology test. Jesus.

My parents always said that the Palestinians were the nicest people they've ever met. Extremely kind and generous, and absolutely crazy about children and babies. My mother said wherever she went people would take her kids and play with them and have fun with them and she's never met people like them anywhere else. It's so sad what's happening to good people.

SandyWaves · 05/11/2023 23:15

millymollymoomoo · 05/11/2023 09:41

Unfortunately most people protesting have no idea what they are protesting it supporting. It’s sickening. People do t know the history or reality of the brutality under Hamas. They are ISIS by another name who don’t want a two state solution. They want complete annihilation of Jews in Israel and all over. You think they’ll stop at Israel? They are a brutal state who have used their own people as shields, siphoned humanitarian aid away from the people to instead build times to launch misiles into Isreal on a daily basis.
wonrn have zero rights. Gays are killed. No freedom of press or speech, wear wrong clothes as a woman? Stoned or killed. How anyone can be out on the streets effectively supporting them makes me sick

of course, having sympathy for innocent children in Gaza caught up is one thing and something we should all be looking at ways for the international community to help, but a ceasefire is not it. Supporting Hamas is not it!

and yes more needs to be focussed on getting these hostages freed and talking about the brutality and reality of hamas. People are blind to the truth .

So how do you propose getting the innocent children in Gaza out?

Innocent Israeli children are also in those tunnels that Israel are bombing.

Hamas and Israel seem to be on the same footing...no-one is going to rescue the innocent people

notsoready4school · 05/11/2023 23:46

SharonEllis · 05/11/2023 18:11

What do you think 'from the river to the sea' means?

What does it mean in the Likud party charter? In the chant it means the Palestinians will be free from oppression.

Creatingusernamesismygame · 06/11/2023 00:00

petuniasandpetals · 05/11/2023 10:25

So surely "FREE THE HOSTAGES" should be the chants?

Free all the hostages needs to be the next chant then. Remember Isreal has many many Palestinian hostages. Not since October, but for many years Palestinian youths mainly men and young boys have been kidnapped and tortured by the IDF

SharonEllis · 06/11/2023 05:57

notsoready4school · 05/11/2023 23:46

What does it mean in the Likud party charter? In the chant it means the Palestinians will be free from oppression.

But that 'freedom' is to be achieved by eliminating Israel. As you know. Just be honest about it. And I wonder what that freedom would look like. You could ask some Iranians. Interesting how many ex and dissident Iranians are staunch supporters of Israel against Hamas.

NotSuchASmugMarried · 06/11/2023 09:05

petuniasandpetals · 05/11/2023 10:13

Netanyahu has said there will be a ceasefire if the hostages are released.
Nobody would want to live under or next to Hamas.
And so as much as I would like this to be over there doesn't seem to be a resolution until Hamas capitulate which is not likely to happen.
All in all it's terrible.

I think what he actually said was that there would be no ceasefire while Hamas held hostages. That's not the same as saying there WILL be a ceasefire if Hamas release the hostages.

HoldOnMiGenna · 06/11/2023 11:56

Admitting that it was Hamas who broke the previous ceasefire by DELIBERATELY targeting Israeli citizens, adhering to their official aim of genociding all Israelis and Jews would go against the narrative.

Admitting that Hamas and too many so called "pro Palestinians" hate Israel, Israelis and Jews far more than they love Palestinians would also go against the narrative.
To admit that Israel have just cause, in light of the main aim of Hamas and the fact that Hamas do not care that residential Palestinians will suffer far higher collateral death tolls than Israel in this conflict due to Hamas using Palestinians as sitting ducks and NOT due to some notion that Israel is deliberately targetting Palestinians to die, would also go against the narrative.
To admit that called Palestinian supporters do not care about death tolls when the toll is below a certain high and deliberately targeted number and only pretend to care about a reported by Hamas far higher death toll , but do.not demand that Hamas give back the hostages that they kidnapped when they broke the previous ceasefire so wickedly....at least to.see if Israel will cool her justifiably very hot heels in seeking out ALL root and branch of Hamas presence on Gaza......would go against the narrative. They would rather more Gazans die to prove their point that Israel are the imperialist shit stirrers.

And to not question why Gaza has an abnormally high youth population and so much of a population and not question Hamas rules that women are no more than broodmares to provide human shields for Hamas in its quest to destroy Israel and Jewish people, this the current death toll will never matter to Hamas as long as Gazan women with viable wombs survive to provide more human shields and people to brainwash to hate Israel more than they love themselves. The recognition of this intra murderous misogyny , child and life hatred also goes against the narrative.

The fact that so called pro Palestinian supporters want to control how far back into history people should look , lest any justification for a Jewish state outside of the Holocaust is found by the genuinely neutral, but do not admit to pogroms and Arab, Middle Eastern, Western European , Eastern European , Indo European states expelling Jews or at best making life untenable is ignored. As is the fact that theocratic and Muslim majority nations in the Middle East and North Africa are very intolerant of difference to the point and more of what they accuse Israel.of being.
This is inconvenient to the narrative.

Jews shouldn't have a homeland, but Islamic imperialism in all continents outside of the Americas and Antarctica is to be brushed aside is inconvenient to the narrative of " Jewish ethno European colonial imperialism " of so called Pro Palestinian supporters whose sense of history only goes back to the 1940s, but in a very convenient glitch, managed to ride over the murderous breaking of the ceasefire by Hamas on October 7th that has caused this conflict and deaths of Israelis and Palestinians.
That's inconvenient to the narrative, too.

I have always said that Palestinians have the worst allies for the large amount of them that exist. On better examination , Palestinians have been GENERATIONALLY cursed by having allies who use their cause as a conduit to express anti Semitism so repressed and denied that so many of the so called pro Palestine supporters are in denial. Also there are those of all races , creeds and classes who are edgelords who love the benefits of The West , no.matter the way those benefits were wrought, but they have a hole within , so deep it cannot be filled by normal means as these types are oppositional, too.
Israel and 'anti Zionism" provides them a " legitimate" means of mask slipping. They lose nothing, can hide behind hyper emotionalism, can hide behind the massive amount of that character type who exist in the Western do called Pro Palestinian support, no deep thought or circumspection is demanded and the more one acts like a toddler denied a sweetie , the better one is received amongst their cohort. Boundaries and propiety are often optional.

LaDerniereVacheFolle · 06/11/2023 12:22

HoldOnMiGenna · 06/11/2023 11:56

Admitting that it was Hamas who broke the previous ceasefire by DELIBERATELY targeting Israeli citizens, adhering to their official aim of genociding all Israelis and Jews would go against the narrative.

Admitting that Hamas and too many so called "pro Palestinians" hate Israel, Israelis and Jews far more than they love Palestinians would also go against the narrative.
To admit that Israel have just cause, in light of the main aim of Hamas and the fact that Hamas do not care that residential Palestinians will suffer far higher collateral death tolls than Israel in this conflict due to Hamas using Palestinians as sitting ducks and NOT due to some notion that Israel is deliberately targetting Palestinians to die, would also go against the narrative.
To admit that called Palestinian supporters do not care about death tolls when the toll is below a certain high and deliberately targeted number and only pretend to care about a reported by Hamas far higher death toll , but do.not demand that Hamas give back the hostages that they kidnapped when they broke the previous ceasefire so wickedly....at least to.see if Israel will cool her justifiably very hot heels in seeking out ALL root and branch of Hamas presence on Gaza......would go against the narrative. They would rather more Gazans die to prove their point that Israel are the imperialist shit stirrers.

And to not question why Gaza has an abnormally high youth population and so much of a population and not question Hamas rules that women are no more than broodmares to provide human shields for Hamas in its quest to destroy Israel and Jewish people, this the current death toll will never matter to Hamas as long as Gazan women with viable wombs survive to provide more human shields and people to brainwash to hate Israel more than they love themselves. The recognition of this intra murderous misogyny , child and life hatred also goes against the narrative.

The fact that so called pro Palestinian supporters want to control how far back into history people should look , lest any justification for a Jewish state outside of the Holocaust is found by the genuinely neutral, but do not admit to pogroms and Arab, Middle Eastern, Western European , Eastern European , Indo European states expelling Jews or at best making life untenable is ignored. As is the fact that theocratic and Muslim majority nations in the Middle East and North Africa are very intolerant of difference to the point and more of what they accuse Israel.of being.
This is inconvenient to the narrative.

Jews shouldn't have a homeland, but Islamic imperialism in all continents outside of the Americas and Antarctica is to be brushed aside is inconvenient to the narrative of " Jewish ethno European colonial imperialism " of so called Pro Palestinian supporters whose sense of history only goes back to the 1940s, but in a very convenient glitch, managed to ride over the murderous breaking of the ceasefire by Hamas on October 7th that has caused this conflict and deaths of Israelis and Palestinians.
That's inconvenient to the narrative, too.

I have always said that Palestinians have the worst allies for the large amount of them that exist. On better examination , Palestinians have been GENERATIONALLY cursed by having allies who use their cause as a conduit to express anti Semitism so repressed and denied that so many of the so called pro Palestine supporters are in denial. Also there are those of all races , creeds and classes who are edgelords who love the benefits of The West , no.matter the way those benefits were wrought, but they have a hole within , so deep it cannot be filled by normal means as these types are oppositional, too.
Israel and 'anti Zionism" provides them a " legitimate" means of mask slipping. They lose nothing, can hide behind hyper emotionalism, can hide behind the massive amount of that character type who exist in the Western do called Pro Palestinian support, no deep thought or circumspection is demanded and the more one acts like a toddler denied a sweetie , the better one is received amongst their cohort. Boundaries and propiety are often optional.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻.

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