Israels airstrikes have targeted an ambulance carrying injured civilians towards the Rafah border...

[starfleet]

The images coming through on news channels are horrific.

💯

If Israels goal is really to destroy Hamas to ensure a safer Israel I don't think it will achieve it's goals

If won’t eradicate them & it won’t make Israel safer.
It will create more enemies and more individuals who will want to destroy it, and unfortunately at the expense of civilians on both sides

You’re right

@grottyb

You haven’t answered my questions?

Proportionate response would be great.

Running an entire population’s infrastructure, bombing mosques, ambulances, hospitals and openly admitting to the goal of making the nation of ‘smaller’ than it was doesn’t seem proportionate, only to ally’s due to their self-interest and corruption. Denying water and cutting off water supplies, food and fuel to an entire population because there’s terrorists among them? Sure.

So you think it’s perfectly fine? You can just shrug it off? Good for you.

Sky news have just done an update on it with a video attached
Again I would say it's quite triggering I'm not sure if they have added a trigger warning

Thanks @Parkingt111. People like you are the reason faith in humanity is quickly restored even during these awful time.

You honestly believe that if 300 Cumbrian terrorists went and butchered 1450 people in Scotland on a Saturday morning, it would be perfectly reasonable and understandable for Scotland to barricade 2.3 million Cumbrians into the Lake District, cut off their water, electricity, fuel and stop any aid going in and everyone would shrug and say well those mountain people support the terrorists there's not much else that Scotland could do really?! I think people might expect a different approach tbh.

@Weddingpuzzle I mean politically I don’t think you can compare Cumbria & Scotland to Gaza & Israel 😆 however I simply said any reaction by the UK would result in civilian deaths.
You can disagree with that if you want but imo looking at history the UK government has killed innocent civilians in plenty of countries including Northern Ireland. Im not sure that the fact they didn’t cut off water supplies makes those deaths any more palatable.

@Green777 what questions?

Proportionate response would be great.

What is a proportionate response? Listening to world leaders, politicians, radio debates nobody seems to be able to quantify what this should actually look like? What would you define as a proportionate response? Obviously aid should be allowed in & ideally no civilians would die but in reality that’s impossible. How many civilian deaths would you deem proportionate? The pressure on Israel to stop will increase (I’m sure they are aware of this) but I certainly cannot quantify how many deaths is the correct amount.

Sure that is it exactly. Nobody will be safer. More pain, more suffering by ordinary civilians on both sides. Nothing positive will come of this.

Would it be okay if I DM you? Specifically on "the ethics, good, bad and ugly" of sharing violent content?

I do not want to lecture you or anything - I just need a 2nd opinion!

You aren't wrong @grottyb I think I was looking at it from a how popular publicly that would be and didn't get where you were coming from. From a UK government point of view I think they'd charge in and react exactly the same as Israel. But I don't think they'd have the public support that Israel do - but that could be unfair to Israelis. Maybe many Israelis may well disagree with Netanyahu's approach but given the IDF's brutality are probably keeping their counsel. That's why I find it unfair when people denounce Palestinians for not rejecting Hamas. We are privileged to be able to tell our government to fuck off but lots don't have that option as their lives depend on it.

@grottyb

Your questions don’t seem to be genuine. I think proportionate is quite self-explanatory.

So, do you believe what I’ve stated multiple times to be non proportionate - starving, cutting off water, fuel, aid to an entire people because there are terrorists among them is proportionate?

Do you? Please do answer because you seem to be excusing it so it would be great if you could clarify if you’re not. Please be genuine when you answer though as ‘well what even if is proportionate?’ Is not good enough.

You seem to imply the UK, US would have responded in the same way yet they are getting nervous and underlying the need for restraint and underling that Israel needs to adhere to international law and that they should let humanitarian aid the

Sure that is it exactly. Nobody will be safer. More pain, more suffering by ordinary civilians on both sides. Nothing positive will come of this.

Absolutely, it’s a disaster. And whilst I think a wider conflict will be avoided for now, I’m not sure that will be true in the next few yrs.

Yes sure
Although I definitely dont have the knowledge to give you a professional opinion on it but happy to learn

That's why I find it unfair when people denounce Palestinians for not rejecting Hamas. We are privileged to be able to tell our government to fuck off but lots don't have that option as their lives depend on it.

Absolutely @Weddingpuzzle & what power do Palestinians actually have with regards to Hamas acting as their “leaders”, when is the last time they could even vote.

From a UK government point of view I think they'd charge in and react exactly the same as Israel.

Thank you for seeing my point & my other point was acknowledging the above doesn’t mean you support it. Im not sure why stating something you think would happen gets conflated with personal opinion, they are two separate things.
I also think the point is relevant when discussing the US & UK government public responses.

But I don't think they'd have the public support that Israel do - but that could be unfair to Israelis. Maybe many Israelis may well disagree with Netanyahu's approach but given the IDF's brutality are probably keeping their counsel.

Certainly before the attack Netanyahu was not particularly popular & has had a lot of criticism, rightly so. I’ve read people are angry with regards to the hostages & the fact many will die as part of the response.
I’m not sure re public support here following a similar event. I think the public would demand action tbh & would want the punishment to be fairly severe. I’d hope I was wrong though.

@Green777 I genuinely don’t know how to make my posts any clearer tbh.

So, do you believe what I’ve stated multiple times to be non proportionate - starving, cutting off water, fuel, aid to an entire people because there are terrorists among them is proportionate?

I already said this was wrong..but Im not sure why you are trying to even argue this point with me?

The point I have made on this thread is my view of what the UK response would be & that civilian deaths were inevitable. Rightly or wrongly civilians die during a war & factually the UK has been responsible for a fair few. Of course this is going to influence the UKs & USs public opinion on the matter.

I don’t understand why you have took my posts to mean I don’t care that Palestinians are dying?

Please be genuine when you answer though as ‘well what even if is proportionate?’ Is not good enough.

I don’t think it’s good enough for you to talk about proportion but not be able to clarify what that actually looks like? Do you know what it looks like?
I think it’s a very pertinent point tbh & one the world is asking itself at this moment & I don’t think anyone knows the answer, well except you perhaps!

It’s very easy to make facile posts but as I said the ME conflict is complex so it’s pretty pointless & doesn’t lead to any meaningful debate.

War criminals!

Israel has now deported 3200 palestinian workers (they were working in Israel when the war broke out) back into Gaza.

It almost feels like a sick movie, where a person is let loose and given a 30 min headstart before the hunt begins.

None of the 3200 workers were/are part of Hamas, knowing that, why would Israel put them into an area they are actively bombing.

It's almost like they don't like Palestinian people and want them gone.

I’ve read as well that they’ve cancelled all employment contracts that Palestinians had in Israel. So everyone has been fired

Where have I seen this before

I know. These were carefully vetted people who were deemed to have no links to Hamas. They were arrested and interrogated and then pushed back to Gaza.

it’s almost like they consider every citizen of Gaza to have responsibility for the acts of Hama.

Pic added

Indeed

One useful aspect for Israel of this conflict is that they are finding out how far they can go before their "friends" say "Stop". I'm sure that they are taking time to analyse which governments around the world are saying what and they'll use those responses as a calibration point for anything else they might wish to do in the future.

Personally, I think that our own governement has been reprehensible and with very few exceptions, our own self-agrandising, politicians of all parties, should hang their heads shame at their lack of condemnation. Most of them care more about their own careers than they do about right or wrong. Our country's response has virtually been a green light for Israel.

Send them to their probable deaths in Gaza wearing number tags. Is this some kind of trauma response ? I simply don’t understand the Israeli government psyche at the moment, reprehensible. And this is what the U.K. government stands by, roll on the election, it can’t come soon enough.