Two state solution

[Babybearissleeping]

Can someone please explain to me why palastinians are against a two state solution? Or is it just Hamas that don't want this?

I know it's not a simple solution to implement but seems the only solution to me.

Well in terms of deaths , the killing rates are much smaller in all those examples of two state solutions - so whilst they are not perfect and require lots of ongoing work it's clearly better than the Isreal Palestine situation

I doubt a few thousand have been killed in Ireland this year never mind over a few weeks

Pakistan India you might get an handful of deaths in a year - 40 soldiers in one attack a few years ago

Not a few thousand children in a few weeks

See attachment from Reuters dated November 2, 2023. 🤔

Hamas' position is unchanged.

Attached is examples of Palestinian leaders rejecting all deals tabled, including an admission from Abbas Palestinian leaders were wrong to reject the 1947 UN plan. Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman's comments is revealing too.

The Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research poll is also pretty revealing:

"A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews."

Palestinians are LESS willing to accept that Israeli Jews have some ownership of land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river than Israeli Jews are the other way round.

As for the two State solution:

"Support for a two-state solution among Palestinians and Israelis declines to just one-third on each side, along with growing opposition to the detailed items of a permanent peace agreement for implementing a two-state solution. Slightly more Israeli Jews support one unequal state under Israeli rule than the two-state solution; but both publics still prefer two states to any other democratic framework for resolving the conflict."

When polls continue to indicate Palestinian and Israeli societies still prefer the two State solution over other options, this means that solution is the only show in town.

Indeed,

"When both sides are offered four similar options for what should happen next on the conflict, 31% of the Palestinians (29% in the West Bank and 34% in the Gaza Strip), 30% of Israeli Jews choose “reach a peace agreement.” This represents a decrease in support for a peace agreement among Palestinians and Israeli Jews compared to only 34% and 41% respectively who chose this option in 2020. 40% of Palestinians (compared to 37% two years ago) opt to “wage an armed struggle against the Israeli occupation.” Among Israeli Jews, 26% call for “a definitive war with the Palestinians” compared to 19% in 2022."

So, a decrease in support for a peace agreement in tandem with an increase in Palestinian support for further conflict points towards using violence to settle the matter.

The outcome of which Palestinians hope leads to a single Palestinian majority State which is the entire reason for Hamas, Lion's Den and Palestinian Islamic Jihad for existing as well as for terrorism. In common with their fellow terrorist travellers PIRA and ETA long since defeated.

Refer back to acceptance of land ownership rights between the two groups.

www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928

Was the point they've worked "so well"?

Nopity-nope!

Was the point that the partition of Palestine into Israel and Palestinian Territory was not a unique, one off event?

Of course! 🤦‍♂️

So...whoosh!

Two State solutions can work though. They tend to work best in the absence of terrorism or the defeat of a terrorist group. Northern Ireland is an example of that these days and there was never majority support for using violence to end partition.

@aswarmofmidges your right and the cynic in me says...
They attack Israel. Not military targets but civilians. Most of them the most peace loving people. Not the soldiers....
They know Israel will retaliate. They know what will happen.
They push the constant propaganda. They don't release hostages... no children released. No babies. They hold onto them and hide them under the places where Israel have no choice but to strike.
They don't put any of their children and most vulnerable into tunnels. They don't protect them. They fire rockets from schools and hospitals. They know the response:
And all the time they can feed the propaganda.... evil Israel, bad Israel. Hurts children.
Not.... Ceasfire, handover hostages, repent.
Use children as weapons as they know what the west's reaction will be. It will turn on Israel. Peddle anti semitism and hatred.
All the time feeding the Narrative, they had it coming. It's been brewing.
It's master manipulation. Be interesting to see what the ayatollah says today after his Hollywood ' watch this space'....

And all the time they can feed the propaganda.... evil Israel, bad Israel. Hurts children.
Not.... Ceasfire, handover hostages, repent.
Use children as weapons as they know what the west's reaction will be. It will turn on Israel. Peddle anti semitism and hatred

If it’s that obvious then why has no-one in the Israeli government/military twigged then? Are they playing into Hamas hands?
Isreal certainly doesn’t seem concerned about losing any “PR” wars.

Since both sides have killed civilians including indiscriminately I don't think anyone should be suggesting one side has some moral high ground

Attached is examples of Palestinian leaders rejecting all deals tabled, including an admission from Abbas Palestinian leaders were wrong to reject the 1947 UN plan. Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman's comments is revealing too.

Did they say why Abbas thought it was wrong to reject the 2 state solution? Probably a case of hindsight being 20-20 but it would be interesting to know.

The "they made me do it" argument also is wrong no matter which side is using it

@aswarmofmidges Very true. Adults must take responsibility for their actions, no matter the provocation.

@Reallifelurker I don't disagree with that.
Both sides have elements that are pushing agendas that are and should be unobtainable.
I think both sides think they have both right and god on their side which leaves very little room for compromise.

Abbas didn't elaborate on why he thought it was an Arab mistake to reject UN partition plan. Just saying what he did was controversial enough amongst plenty of Arabs!

You should see what Hamas' reaction was.

But observers believed that "Abbas appeared to be offering Israel an olive branch, while promoting his own bid to sidestep stalled peace talks by winning UN recognition for a sovereign Palestine."

From my reading, it seems to me Israel believes a deal can be done with Abbas. But Hamas is a massive wedge between the two and enemies of both. Hard to see a solution whilst Hamas remains in the picture.

NATO StratCom COE 2019 report spoke about this and how there really isn't any good options for Israel in the position they're in.

That's the problem - between a rock and hard place. Do nothing and Hamas will strengthen. Do something and a lot of people will die since Hamas are known for using civilians plus civilian infrastructure as shields.

Hamas is banking on people turning against Israel via images from Gaza and their own propaganda which they're very good at. Much better than their PIRA friends ever were, anyway.

Israel IS concerned with the PR lawfare. All Sovereign States are since groups like Hamas are called hybrid threats today. Terrorist groups in 21st Century are a very different kind of threat to 20th Century versions.

Turkeys stance for a future sovereign palestinian state

@Parkingt111 that great bastion of civil rights Turkey.
Erdogan himself has set back Turkeys civil rights decades.

Correct. The more you read from 'pro-palestinian' quarters the more you realise they dont give a shit about the human rights of ordinary muslims. Anywhere. Its all ideology. Look at Iranian resistance accounts. They are all pro-Israel because they know where Islamism leads. Especially for women.

I actually don't see how Israel can now accept a 2-state solution.

Someone on here previously said that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was a trial of Palestinian self-government. Well that obviously failed spectacularly, with Hamas taking control of Gaza, stopping elections, stealing the development aid, and turning Gaza into a huge terrorist stronghold... then committing an atrocity so extreme (and saying they'll do it again as soon as they can) so that Israel really have no option but to change the regime and take back security control. It's of course much harder to take it back security control than to have kept it these 15 years - and it's the Gazan people who have suffered horrifically for that. How Israel are doing it is obviously a point of huge contention, but I don't see how anyone can deny that they need to.

But I've come to realise reading around this that Israel's constraints are really nothing to do with land - it's entirely about security. Everyone says that Israel is tiny and needs the land for all the people coming in: but Israel has a similar proportion of population vs land as the UK, and the same net immigration (1% population per year). They gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt in return for peace and recognition of their borders. The Sinai peninsula is 3 times the size of the whole of Israel. They do encourage settlements on the West bank - but it's to secure that territory, not taking land.

Gaza is small and far away from Israel's main cities. imagine if it had been a hostile force attacking Israel from the West Bank. I read an interesting article which pointed out that the 1967 lines are within 9 miles of the Israeli coast (which would allow an attacker to cut Israel in half), 11 miles from Tel Aviv and 10 from Barsheba, 21 from Haifa and 1 foot from Jerusalem. Given the huge hostility of the surrounding people - proven time and time again by actions as well as words - how can anyone possibly expect Israel to give up security control of the West Bank?

I just can't see a way for it to be possible for Israel. Not now - after what happened in Gaza since 2005, culminating in the 7th October attacks.

Can someone more knowledgeable than me give some kind of hope?

You left out the bit where Israel blockaded the Gaza strip once they "pulled out" and control everything and everyone who comes in and out of the place.

You are also incorrect about why Israel steal land. They steal land because they want to take the Palestinians land and get rid of the Palestinians and Palestine. They are not shy about saying this.

Also, is the current ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza not a small clue as to their intentions? They are ethnically cleansing the Gaza strip and pushing the population out of the area knowing that they will not be able to return because they are stateless.

It's a land grab, carried out via various crimes against humanity including genocide and ethnic cleansing.

There are many key differences. One very major one is that the Republic of Ireland has never made any attempt to take Northern Ireland by force and in the last peace agreement gave up their claim to the land altogether. In the first civil war at the time of partition, they worked with the Northern Ireland government to intern IRA members. Having terrorists actually in government in the territory next door is an entirely different kettle of fish.

The King Solomon and the baby analogy is a new one on me. Haven't come across that before. People always bring God into it when they don't want to figure out a peaceful, political solution.

The rights snd wrongs have been argued back and forth a million times in other threads ToothyFruity.

I asked how a 2-state solution could be possible. That's what this thread is about. Any constructive suggestions on that?

I don't think it would be possible under Netanyahu and Hamas
But I do think it's possible under future leaders with a greater involvement from the western and Arab governments

Some may see me as overly optimistic but there has to be another way forward apart from what we are witnessing now and have done so for decades
This war seems like a pivotal moment

The biggest obstacle is Israel. They don't want 2 states. They want to take over all the land and they want Palestine gone. That's why they support Hamas to ensure a lack of unity between Palestinians. It's also why they blockade Gaza, steal land in the West Bank and why the ongoing genocide is occurring.

For a two state solution to work, Israel would have to stop all of the above - no more land grabbing, give back the land stolen since 1967, end apartheid measures and stop the blockade of Gaza.

They'll never do this though so it's a moot point. They had a chance in 2016 but it would have meant giving back land they stole so they did not sign up to the agreement.

Toothyfruity, your responses are merely simplistic, overly-emotional regurgitations of tired and now meaningless buzzwords steeped in propaganda. Other posters, such as Statsfun, are offering measured, educated information.

Your terrorist is someone elses freedom fighter. And Northern Ireland is an example of a country still wracked by division and the legacy of history.

I was being sarcastic. Imposed twp state solutions have never "worked". Whatever your definition of working is, they don't achieve anything.

give back the land stolen since 1967 but what does that actually look like? You saw my post: assuming you actually read my post and engaged your brain to think about the situation from both sides!

When you actually think about it, it's obvious how vulnerable Israel would be if they allowed hostile armed forces to establish themselves in the West Bank the way Hamas established themselves in Gaza. No country could accept that.

A demilitarized zone? Or rather the whole area demilitarized, given that it's only 20 miles across (the demilitarized zone in Egypt when Israel gave back the Sinai peninsula was 100 miles, with bands saying what types of forces were allowed where). But a very populated area is probably harder to demilitarized.

And who oversees it? Israel is unlikely to trust anyone else with something so critical to it's survival - but if Israel keeps security control then people would continue to say that the territory is occupied.

I'm a practical kind of girl. I don't find slogans (like 'free Palestine') helpful. I need to understand exactly what it would look like and how it would work. Otherwise what's the point of even saying it?