Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

Two state solution

150 replies

Babybearissleeping · 27/10/2023 14:11

Can someone please explain to me why palastinians are against a two state solution? Or is it just Hamas that don't want this?

I know it's not a simple solution to implement but seems the only solution to me.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
aswarmofmidges · 02/11/2023 12:15

They have citizenship but seem to find it hard to get into politics for example - underrepresented and tend to be much less well off , less well educated etc all suggesting some systematic biases

SharonEllis · 02/11/2023 12:17

Icefoot · 02/11/2023 12:08

Well of course I've heard of the holocaust, thank you, but I don't know why it's used to justify what's happeing now, which seems scarily similar.

Because Jews have been persecuted & expelled throughout history & have had no homeland. Not sure what you mean about the similarities with the Holocaust. The October 7th attack on Jews was the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust & the barbarity of it meant there are reasonances. Stopping the further elimination of Jews by destroying Hamas's military capability is what the Current Israeli offensive against Hamas is about.

Ibizafun · 02/11/2023 12:21

aswarmofmidges · 02/11/2023 12:15

They have citizenship but seem to find it hard to get into politics for example - underrepresented and tend to be much less well off , less well educated etc all suggesting some systematic biases

Still a lot better represented than any jew living in an Arab country.. of which there are none that I know of

DownNative · 02/11/2023 12:26

Hellers · 02/11/2023 11:53

Ok fair point DownNative. Still can't see side in the current conflict having confidence in creating a security solution, it would mean compromise from both sides.

The security solution essentially means the total defeat of Hamas or leave them so weak as well as isolated from Iran that they cannot successfully mount another attack. This aspect isn't about compromise.

Where Israel has compromised at various points over the years has been in political settlements themselves. See attachments. Withdrawing the Israel Defence Force from Gaza in 2005 was another compromise. We can now see that this was a massive mistake in terms of national security as well as politically.

See also land for peace and now water for peace which emulate post-war Europe's coal & steel for peace.

Two state solution
Two state solution
caringcarer · 02/11/2023 12:26

BadFaith · 27/10/2023 14:50

The opposition is rooted in hatred of Jewish people and the very existence of a Jewish state. I don’t know how to begin to explain how much Hamas hate Israel except to point you at the atrocities of October 7.

This. Israel have tried many times to suggest 2 state solution but neither Hamas or Palestinian's won't agree.

feralunderclass · 02/11/2023 12:27

Hellers · 02/11/2023 12:06

That's an interesting question. If Israel was declared a secular state, guaranteeing the security and rights of all religions equally would it make any difference? From what I can see I don't think so. I think they'd still have to protect their Jewish population.

I don't know why the lack of 'compromise' is always laid on the doorstep of Palestinians. Less than one third of Israelis want a two state solution. Israel (the government) don't want a two state solution as it will "lose it's Jewish character". It wants to remain the majority number wise, and a two state solution will throw this. The far right want to expel Palestinians from the West Bank completely, and retain it as Jewish land. In occupied East Jerusalem (the Muslim quarter) large Jewish communities have formed, which they don't want to dismantle. There is also a university there, which they don't want to give up.

feralunderclass · 02/11/2023 12:28

And Israel do not want Palestinian refugees to gave any right of return.

LeavesOnTrees · 02/11/2023 12:33

A two state solution would involve both sides accepting the other is there to stay. Neither Hamas nor the Israeli government seem to be at that point.
Then there would be the question of borders, the Israeli government has not respected the 1967 borders and have continued to build settlements.
Unfortunately this war will just be creating more hated each side has for the other.

DownNative · 02/11/2023 12:34

feralunderclass · 02/11/2023 12:00

What did I argue in the first place?

Using Craig Mokhiber, you argued that "He said there has never in history been a two state solution proposed other than in Israel/Palestine".

Can you provide his actual words?

At any rate, that line is very clearly a load of claptrap as already shown.

Hellers · 02/11/2023 12:36

Yes Israel would have to concede certain things, as would the Palestinian side, compromise would be needed from both sides. It's far from easy or pleasant for either party. The alternative seems to be that they keep fighting to the last person standing which is a terrible prospect.

feralunderclass · 02/11/2023 12:37

DownNative · 02/11/2023 12:34

Using Craig Mokhiber, you argued that "He said there has never in history been a two state solution proposed other than in Israel/Palestine".

Can you provide his actual words?

At any rate, that line is very clearly a load of claptrap as already shown.

To be honest it's possible I misquoted him, I'll have to go back to the interview. Apologies in advance if I made a mistake.

ketchup07070 · 02/11/2023 12:38

@LeavesOnTrees I agree. It is pointless to discuss a 2 state solution, since both the Israeli government and Hamas openly reject it. Unless leadership changes on both sides there will be no movement towards it, or any other solution.

DownNative · 02/11/2023 12:40

feralunderclass · 02/11/2023 12:28

And Israel do not want Palestinian refugees to gave any right of return.

Not into Israel, no, as this is a clear security concern, especially given the history.

As Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi said, if Palestinian Territory had been demilitarised a long time ago there would not be continuing conflict. And, therefore, no real need for various security defences within Israel itself.

Of course, Yasser Arafat rejected a demilitarised Gaza and West Bank. Clinton was right to angrily declare Arafat was leading Palestinians AND the region to catastrophe in doing so in 2001.

Here we are.

Israel has been making moves to normalise relations for decades first with Egypt, then Jordan and more recently with Saudi Arabia. Normalisation of relations bypasses groups like Hamas and isolates them politically.

As Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman made clear - Palestinians have no real power in the MENA region. Hence Hamas tried to smash it on 7th October 2023.

DownNative · 02/11/2023 12:45

feralunderclass · 02/11/2023 12:37

To be honest it's possible I misquoted him, I'll have to go back to the interview. Apologies in advance if I made a mistake.

It's certainly not in his resignation letter within which he burned his bridges at the UN.

Additionally, I must point out that Craig Mokhiber has some problematic views and openly opposed the widely accepted International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition of antisemitism, for example.

Basically, he's not someone I'd be looking to quote from here on in.

feralunderclass · 02/11/2023 12:55

DownNative · 02/11/2023 12:45

It's certainly not in his resignation letter within which he burned his bridges at the UN.

Additionally, I must point out that Craig Mokhiber has some problematic views and openly opposed the widely accepted International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition of antisemitism, for example.

Basically, he's not someone I'd be looking to quote from here on in.

Opposing the IHRA definition isn't problematic, many civil organizations (UN, OHCRC and many HR orgs) have too, as it by default means you cannot critisize Israel's actions as that by default means you reject the state of Israel as a homeland for Jewish people. ETA and this then means you are antisemitic.

feralunderclass · 02/11/2023 12:58

DownNative · 02/11/2023 12:40

Not into Israel, no, as this is a clear security concern, especially given the history.

As Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi said, if Palestinian Territory had been demilitarised a long time ago there would not be continuing conflict. And, therefore, no real need for various security defences within Israel itself.

Of course, Yasser Arafat rejected a demilitarised Gaza and West Bank. Clinton was right to angrily declare Arafat was leading Palestinians AND the region to catastrophe in doing so in 2001.

Here we are.

Israel has been making moves to normalise relations for decades first with Egypt, then Jordan and more recently with Saudi Arabia. Normalisation of relations bypasses groups like Hamas and isolates them politically.

As Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman made clear - Palestinians have no real power in the MENA region. Hence Hamas tried to smash it on 7th October 2023.

They don't want any right of return, as this would then make Palestinians the majority.

DownNative · 02/11/2023 13:17

feralunderclass · 02/11/2023 12:55

Opposing the IHRA definition isn't problematic, many civil organizations (UN, OHCRC and many HR orgs) have too, as it by default means you cannot critisize Israel's actions as that by default means you reject the state of Israel as a homeland for Jewish people. ETA and this then means you are antisemitic.

Edited

We can see who has accepted IHRA definition here:

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism/adoption-endorsement

UN hasn't rejected it although some have been trying to get UN to reject it.

Information on endorsement and adoption of the IHRA working definition of antisemitism

The IHRA's working definition of antisemitism, adopted in 2016 at the Bucharest Plenary under the Romanian Presidency, has helped guide countless governments, organizations, and individuals in their efforts to identify antisemitism. This practical tool...

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism/adoption-endorsement

PinkTonic · 02/11/2023 13:31

feralunderclass · 02/11/2023 11:35

Ireland is not equivalent (although there are some similarities). Free movement and right of nationality is permitted in Northern Ireland for Irish citizens. This would not be the case in Israel for Palestinians. I repeat, the two state solution relies on the continued oppression and human rights violations of the Palestinian people.

No. It. Doesn’t.

it relies upon a genuine desire to live alongside its neighbours from the Palestinian side and an end to bombing Israel.

HTH.

Parkingt111 · 02/11/2023 13:53

Well it seems that both sides have their disagreements on what the two states would look like
The bbc have a good article on it
Hamas previously agreed in 2017 if it was done according to the 1967 borders
This would mean dismantling the illegal settlements which Israel does not want to do
I don't think it will happen under Netanyahu who has clearly stated that the palestinian hopes of a sovereign state must be eliminated
But then again it seems his days in power are numbered
If the Palestinian government can come to a agreement and Israels new PM has a different view then it may be entirely possible

Two state solution
Parkingt111 · 02/11/2023 13:57

As difficult as it may seem to imagine right now especially with the current war, I think the only hope of any sort of lasting peace in the area will be a two state solution that all can come to a agreement on

Stomacharmeleon · 02/11/2023 14:11

@Ibizafun good point. It is worth remembering as well that 13 countries including Bahrain, Kuwait, Lebanon stop Israelis from entering and some countries ban people who have just had an Israeli visa.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 02/11/2023 14:25

Icefoot · 02/11/2023 11:42

This is the part I struggle with. In a very simplistic response why do they need a Jewish state? (I know, the promised land, but no one seems to be applying other teachings from the Old Testament currently, love thy neighbour?)

Why isn't the aim for everyone live together? We couldn't call for a Christian state, for example.

Because they are not ‘Jews’ , for more than seventy years they have been Israelis, citizens of Israel. Not all Israelis are followers of Judaism, or of Jewish ethnic heritage, there are lots of Muslims, Christians and atheists, lots of people of Arab, African and European racial heritage. Quite a lot of Israeli Jews have not immigrated, they were there before ‘Israel’, probably before the Turkish Empire conquered the region.

They have as much right to a state as any of the many more recent states in Africa.

Icefoot · 02/11/2023 14:28

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 02/11/2023 14:25

Because they are not ‘Jews’ , for more than seventy years they have been Israelis, citizens of Israel. Not all Israelis are followers of Judaism, or of Jewish ethnic heritage, there are lots of Muslims, Christians and atheists, lots of people of Arab, African and European racial heritage. Quite a lot of Israeli Jews have not immigrated, they were there before ‘Israel’, probably before the Turkish Empire conquered the region.

They have as much right to a state as any of the many more recent states in Africa.

The post I quoted refered to a Jewish state?

Daftasabroom · 02/11/2023 15:04

Because less than 100 years ago what is now Israel was Palestine.

For much of the last thousand years the vast majority of those living in the area were Muslim.

The mid to late 19c saw a sea change of religious, cultural and racial nationalism and fundamentalism. From Crimea, to the Levant, to Ireland, to trades unions, socialism, communism, Zionism etc. From 1914 onward imperialism and colonialism were in their death throws. The Ottoman Empire had collapsed, in Russia the Bolshevik Revolution, the collapse of the Habsburg empire. Nations were redefining themselves from dynastic to democratic or autocratic entities.

From 1917 to 1947/8 Palestine came under British control and in 1920 the British Mandate, in 1922 Muslims were vast majority of Palestinians. Armed factions of both Jews and Muslims fought both each other and the Brits. Up to 700 Palestinian villages were razed by the British. As the Nazi threat increased the British allowed only a very limited migration from the Jewish diaspora to Palestine (despite indications of the Holocaust to come).

In the eyes of the west the horrors of the Holocaust and the post war aggression of the USSR legitimized Zionist calls for a Jewish homeland. Europe and the UK had lost the appetite and the ability to maintain expensive and unpopular overseas expeditions. The star of the US had risen as world's new super power.

In 1948 the State of Israel was formed by the UN despite Muslims having a 2:1 majority. Europe and the Brits were happy to wash their hands of it all, and the US would do anything to win votes at home.

The State of Israel was imposed on the indigenous Palestinian population.

Palestinians were and are still understandably upset. Since that time Muslims have been persecuted, their property and possessions seized. The have been expelled from a land they had lived in for almost a thousand years. Some estimates are that for every Israeli casualty there have been ten Palestinian.

Does this excuse the obscene 7/10 massacre - absolutely not in one little bit.

Does the Holocaust excuse the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and the colonisation of what is now Israel. Absolutely not.

Hamas have a stated aim to destroy Israel.

The governing Lekud party in Israel claim settlement of land (of their choosing) as an unassailable right.

(And don't forget Hamas is backed by Iran, who are allies of Putin, who has invaded Ukraine (see late 19c comment above) who is allied to North Korea and supported by China who are trying to expand into the Pacific and consider Taiwan as their own.)

Or, to put it simply: it's a shit show in which the suffering will get worse before it gets better.

Toothyfruity · 02/11/2023 15:11

So many lies on this thread.

Israel doesn't want a 2 state solution because they want to get rid of Palestine.

The Palestinian side has on previous occasions agreed to proposals for a 2 state solution but Israel never agrees, because they'd have to hand back illegal settlements that they've stolen since 1967.

I heard a hostage negotiator on television a few nights ago pointing out that Hamas is in favour of 2 states. Pro Israelis constantly lie about this, on this site and elsewhere.

Swipe left for the next trending thread