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Conflict in the Middle East

Two state solution

150 replies

Babybearissleeping · 27/10/2023 14:11

Can someone please explain to me why palastinians are against a two state solution? Or is it just Hamas that don't want this?

I know it's not a simple solution to implement but seems the only solution to me.

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Bobslug · 02/11/2023 15:20

How did Israel come to have the land they got in 1967? I thought they won it in a defensive war. Wasn’t the agreement in 1948 that the Palestinian state would be Jordan and the Jewish state would be Israel? I understand that meant people having to move on both sides. What should be done about the Jews who were expelled from Middle Eastern countries? Is anyone pressing for them to have a right of return? Would this be possible or safe for them?

Bells3032 · 02/11/2023 15:21

Daftasabroom · 02/11/2023 15:04

Because less than 100 years ago what is now Israel was Palestine.

For much of the last thousand years the vast majority of those living in the area were Muslim.

The mid to late 19c saw a sea change of religious, cultural and racial nationalism and fundamentalism. From Crimea, to the Levant, to Ireland, to trades unions, socialism, communism, Zionism etc. From 1914 onward imperialism and colonialism were in their death throws. The Ottoman Empire had collapsed, in Russia the Bolshevik Revolution, the collapse of the Habsburg empire. Nations were redefining themselves from dynastic to democratic or autocratic entities.

From 1917 to 1947/8 Palestine came under British control and in 1920 the British Mandate, in 1922 Muslims were vast majority of Palestinians. Armed factions of both Jews and Muslims fought both each other and the Brits. Up to 700 Palestinian villages were razed by the British. As the Nazi threat increased the British allowed only a very limited migration from the Jewish diaspora to Palestine (despite indications of the Holocaust to come).

In the eyes of the west the horrors of the Holocaust and the post war aggression of the USSR legitimized Zionist calls for a Jewish homeland. Europe and the UK had lost the appetite and the ability to maintain expensive and unpopular overseas expeditions. The star of the US had risen as world's new super power.

In 1948 the State of Israel was formed by the UN despite Muslims having a 2:1 majority. Europe and the Brits were happy to wash their hands of it all, and the US would do anything to win votes at home.

The State of Israel was imposed on the indigenous Palestinian population.

Palestinians were and are still understandably upset. Since that time Muslims have been persecuted, their property and possessions seized. The have been expelled from a land they had lived in for almost a thousand years. Some estimates are that for every Israeli casualty there have been ten Palestinian.

Does this excuse the obscene 7/10 massacre - absolutely not in one little bit.

Does the Holocaust excuse the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and the colonisation of what is now Israel. Absolutely not.

Hamas have a stated aim to destroy Israel.

The governing Lekud party in Israel claim settlement of land (of their choosing) as an unassailable right.

(And don't forget Hamas is backed by Iran, who are allies of Putin, who has invaded Ukraine (see late 19c comment above) who is allied to North Korea and supported by China who are trying to expand into the Pacific and consider Taiwan as their own.)

Or, to put it simply: it's a shit show in which the suffering will get worse before it gets better.

Why does everyone seem to forget about this magical land called Jordan. it was not just Israel that was created it was Jordan too which took up 80% of the land of the previous British Mandate. All the Jews who lived there had to leave, as did all of the Jews in the Arab world ie Egypt, Iran, Iraq. At the time there were about a million Arabs displaced and around 900k Jews. but no one seems to remember that and just remember the Arabs who got renamed the Palestinians.

StarbucksSmarterSister · 02/11/2023 16:08

He said there has never in history been a two state solution proposed other than in Israel/Palestine,

If he really said this no wonder he's an "ex".

What an absolute joke.

Noicant · 02/11/2023 16:24

I think it’s shit leadership, at any given time on one side or both. The only thing that is going to work is a partition of the area. People will lose homes they will have to move but then they can put a giant wall and surround it with landmine and leave each other in peace.

Israelis will have to accept some loss of land, Palestinians will have to accept some loss of land. Neither of them is going anywhere so they may as well get on with it. The partition of India was horrific because it was badly managed. It can work in the long term in everyones interests.

But yes Hamas and Netanyahu are both blocks to this. Hopefully one day the nutcases on both sides will just be drowned out by people who want to just live in peace.

Stomacharmeleon · 02/11/2023 17:25

Also most of the countries in that area are relatively ' new' in that respect.

Daftasabroom · 02/11/2023 17:50

@Bells3032 yes, but that was a snapshot. Israel has continued to colonise and seize Palestinian properties and murder Palestinians in the West Bank.

Precedence either counts or it doesn't, Israelis cannot claim a right to settle Palestine unless they accept that Palestinians have a right to settle Israel. There needs to be a quid pro quo.

Israel is going to win this. For the time being.

I suspect we'll see the vast majority of Palestinians cleansed/evicted from both Gaza and the West Bank within the next 20 years. That will leave Israel surrounded by increasingly radicalised enemies from the people they have displaced.

ticketstickets · 02/11/2023 17:57

Ibizafun · 02/11/2023 12:21

Still a lot better represented than any jew living in an Arab country.. of which there are none that I know of

Iran has a sizabl-ish Jewish population right now. Also some Jews in Morrocco (not a lot, a few hundred) and Turkey. (some thousands)

ticketstickets · 02/11/2023 17:59

a little bit about Iranian Jews here

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-of-iran?utm_content=cmp-true

Ibizafun · 02/11/2023 18:04

Er.. I don't think I'd want to be a Jew in Iran right now. It's bad enough in the uk!

25milesfromhome · 02/11/2023 18:26

ketchup07070 · 02/11/2023 12:38

@LeavesOnTrees I agree. It is pointless to discuss a 2 state solution, since both the Israeli government and Hamas openly reject it. Unless leadership changes on both sides there will be no movement towards it, or any other solution.

This is painfully true.

MissyB1 · 02/11/2023 18:36

Totalblindnessofthesoul · 02/11/2023 11:39

You have a house and someone takes over it, and locks you and your family in the basement for years. They then offer you a deal of also having the box room (but no way to get between the two). Is it a good deal or would you just want your house back?

Its an oversimplification, but fundamentally aaccepting a 2 state solution means the Palestinians get less than they originally had still. The thing is, time has moved on, and the 'new' people in the house aren't really new any more, have settled down, had families etc, and making them homeless isn't really any better. Coupled with that, they are backed up by powerful friends.

So the pragmatic solution is a 2 state solution, but it needs to be a viable and independent state. Israel supporting settlers in the west bank undermines their commitment, and Israel blowing up gazas airport and seaport further adds doubts that any state would be actually independent.

There'd need to be faith in both sides. Setting aside this current conflict, there can be no trust until Hamas (or other group) stop firing rockets, until the IDF stop bombing/detaining prisoners without charge/shooting people. Israel needs to not try to control everything going in/out. Both sides need to dial down the genocidal talk.

This is a fair attempt at summing it up.

Stomacharmeleon · 02/11/2023 18:45

@Ibizafun there is about 800 in Kuwait.

Hellers · 02/11/2023 19:17

The Taoiseach (Irish PM) visited the Korean DMZ today and it reminded me that solutions can be found, even very extreme ones like the DMZ. Yes Korea is a different case and far from ideal but it's an example of how things can be managed.

hermenmumster · 02/11/2023 20:07

Genuine question and not designed to be inflammatory at all.

But just because a religion is persecuted does it really give them the right to have their own religious state?

What about the uighers, the yazidi, the other groups who have been persecuted. They have their own distinct faith too

Precipice · 02/11/2023 20:20

hermenmumster · 02/11/2023 20:07

Genuine question and not designed to be inflammatory at all.

But just because a religion is persecuted does it really give them the right to have their own religious state?

What about the uighers, the yazidi, the other groups who have been persecuted. They have their own distinct faith too

A lot of antisemitism is about hatred of the Jews as a people, not about hatred of Judaism as a religion. It's also an ethnic conflict. Often it's two-pronged.

If an ethnic group in an area wants to create its own land and be in charge of its own destiny and no longer be a persecuted minority in other lands, do they have a right to do that? That's the foundation of a lot of modern states.

I think all states should be secular and there's a lot to criticise about the power of religion in Israel (they have no civil marriage), but there are many religious states. The MENA region is full of Muslim states. Why not Jews?

Stomacharmeleon · 02/11/2023 20:25

I see whilst we are looking elsewhere the large Afghanistan population of Pakistan are being forcibly deported. 1.7 million in fact.

SharonEllis · 02/11/2023 22:08

Stomacharmeleon · 02/11/2023 20:25

I see whilst we are looking elsewhere the large Afghanistan population of Pakistan are being forcibly deported. 1.7 million in fact.

No Jews, No News I'm afraid. No one gives a toss unless they can blame Jewish people, preferably Israelis. Where is the outcry about the 100s of thousands killed in Yemen & Syria. The 5000 killed in Darfur this year. The people of Afghanistan have suffered terribly and the Taliban are back.

SomeCatFromJapan · 02/11/2023 22:26

Why isn't the aim for everyone live together? We couldn't call for a Christian state, for example.

There are levels of extreme anti-Semitism rampant in the Middle East. A one-state solution where Jewish people were a minority would be hugely dangerous for them.

Stomacharmeleon · 02/11/2023 22:33

@SharonEllis I am sure the Jews must have their hand in it in some way.....

SomeCatFromJapan · 02/11/2023 22:34

I heard a hostage negotiator on television a few nights ago pointing out that Hamas is in favour of 2 states. Pro Israelis constantly lie about this, on this site and elsewhere.

That's weird because Ghazi Hamad sounds pretty determined to destroy Israel completely:

https://twitter.com/MayMelhem/status/1719978743798673705

https://twitter.com/MayMelhem/status/1719978743798673705

25milesfromhome · 02/11/2023 22:50

Totally weird, I could’ve sworn I heard Hamas Official, Ghazi Hamad confirm in that interview that total annihilation of Israel was the goal.

Stomacharmeleon · 02/11/2023 22:52

@SomeCatFromJapan that would be laughable if it wasn't so dangerous. Propaganda at its worst.

mollyfolk · 02/11/2023 23:21

Icefoot · 02/11/2023 11:42

This is the part I struggle with. In a very simplistic response why do they need a Jewish state? (I know, the promised land, but no one seems to be applying other teachings from the Old Testament currently, love thy neighbour?)

Why isn't the aim for everyone live together? We couldn't call for a Christian state, for example.

In all fairness, even though I would say I am anti the Zionist ideology- like very much against the occupation of the Palestinian Territories. Israel does exist. A two state solution involves compromise on both sides. I know the Northern Ireland situation is not the same but it offers valuable lessons in how to have peace for this region.

sadly a sizable amount of people in both countries do want a two state solution. But right now neither the current Israeli government nor Hamas are working towards this. 20 years ago there was more hope of peace but the situation right now seems hopeless.

auberginefortea · 03/11/2023 02:42

No Jews, No News I'm afraid. No one gives a toss unless they can blame Jewish people, preferably Israelis.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I would also add that no-one cares if it doesn't fit into the paradigm of "the west /US" versus the rest that countries like Russia are keen to peddle, and people lap it up. There are about 7 million displaced in the Congo. There are horrors as you point out all over the World.

SharonEllis · 03/11/2023 07:26

SomeCatFromJapan · 02/11/2023 22:26

Why isn't the aim for everyone live together? We couldn't call for a Christian state, for example.

There are levels of extreme anti-Semitism rampant in the Middle East. A one-state solution where Jewish people were a minority would be hugely dangerous for them.

I think we know exactly what would happen.

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