Page 12 | To be horrified re the 2000+ children killed in Gaza.

SoShallINever · 2023-10-24T21:57:20+00:00

The news tonight was unbearable. I am sickened that the West is not calling for a ceasefire or some restraint. I found out today that Gaza is almost exactly the same size as the small Hebridean island of Jura. But whereas Jura has a few hundred residents, Gaza has 2.4 million packed in. You couldn't throw a stone into Gaza without it hitting someone, never mind a missile. The children of Gaza are not terrorists and I wish Israel would stop.

Cupcakekiller · 27/10/2023 11:18

People are just people and the same the world over, whatever their ethnicity or religion. Vast majority of civilians just want to live an ordinary life with those they love with food, water, shelter, jobs, hobbies, education etc. Women and children the world over (and men) suffer because of the power/land hungry men in power the world over. The level of human suffering on both sides is desperately sad but also nothing new. Men in power will never change.

Dinkydaisy1 · 27/10/2023 11:50

feralunderclass · 27/10/2023 10:18

Residential areas in Khan Younis were bombed overnight. 29 deaths from one family alone. They were friends of mine, we're very good to me, their dc were all British passport holders. All dead now 💔

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I'm sorry to hear that. I hope their souls are at peace with the angels now.

Gruntsandgroans · 27/10/2023 12:09

I'm so sorry for your losses @feralunderclass It's so heartbreaking, entire families just gone. I really am sorry ❤️

ProvincialLady1 · 27/10/2023 12:17

I'm so sorry @feralunderclass. It's terrible. What a loss.

Livelovebehappy · 27/10/2023 12:29

localnotail · 27/10/2023 10:43

Every time I see this the blame is always on Israel. So where is Hamas in all this? Israel is going after known terrorist targets - tunnel entrances, rocket launching sites, known Hamas operatives - so Hamas makes sure all of these are located in densely populated areas, sometimes close to schools and hospitals; they also prevent people from moving away, not allowing them to use bomb shelters and generally use Palestinians as a human shields. They have no respect for life, they teach children to be suicide bombers and generally are a medieval death cult. They are also constantly firing DIY rockets towards Israel, and these rockets sometimes fall down in Gaza - in fact, they probably create more damage in Gaza since Israel intercepts most of them over their side.

I would also like to point out that Hamas are running all the hospitals in Gaza, they are in charge of healthcare. I would not put it past them putting civilians in the way of harm deliberately.

Bombing will stop if Hamas releases all the hostages and gives up people responsible for 7th October attack. But they would much rather have dead children on both sides. Which is horrendous. But I haven't so far seen any anti-Hamas demonstrations anywhere. People are quick to say "not all Palestinians are Hamas" but even Palestinians abroad are not very vocal regarding overthrowing Hamas or calling them to release hostages.

But yes, poor kids. Both Israeli and Palestinian.

Good balanced post. There are no big anti Hamas protests here in the UK because Palestinians and their supporters don't focus on this. And the Jewish communities in the UK, who would be most likely to protest, have acted with great dignity, and appreciate that the situation is very sensitive with deaths and chaos on both sides, and protests on the streets just whip up a lot of fear amongst the affected communities here. Glad that there seems to be action now against groups posting conflicting info on social media. This can only be a good thing.

Parkingt111 · 27/10/2023 12:31

Whilst we mourn the loss of innocent lives and everything around us seems so bleak, I wanted to share this image of a young boy from a refugee camp today in Gaza. His whole life has been shattered, displaced from his home, surrounded by bombing and strikes. I dread to think what unimaginable scenes he may have witnessed yet amongst all the horrors he finds comfort in his cat. His innocent smile. I found it to be an extremely powerful image of strength and resilience

To be horrified re the 2000+ children killed in Gaza.

ProvincialLady1 · 27/10/2023 12:37

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 11:13

I am not sure that is 'the normal, universal view' though I accept it's common view.

I understand that in most wars civilian casualties/loss of life are inevitable.

I don't understand how we can justify one loss of life more than any other though, based solely on the country they live in/who their leaders are/which terrorists have taken up residence there/what propaganda they were exposed to while growing up and so on.

We cannot write lives off as more or less valuable just because we do or don't take the same view as those doing the attacking.

I used WW2 as an example, as many of us are familiar with it, but we could choose any war/battle. I am not saying that some of the attacks in WW2 were not justified, what I am saying is that no civilian death should be seen as 'more justified'. It's a dangerous slope when we look at it like that.

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I think the point is that in a war, civilian casualties have to be minimised as much as possible. It's not that any are more or less justified as such, that sounds as if it's somehow OK to kill people (non-combatants), and clearly it's horrific and tragic when that happens. Their lives are of no less value just because just because of where they live or who their leaders are.

What Hamas are doing by deliberately embedding themselves in the civilian population is a despicable war crime. Because Hamas have to be removed, their days are numbered and I'm sure they know that, but they'd rather hide behind ordinary men women and children and maximise casualties in order to make martyrs of them.

They can't be allowed to continue to destroy the lives of their own people, any hopes for a future peace and a more prosperous and secure life for the Gazans, and to indoctrinate their own children to continue to try to commit genocidal atrocities against innocent civilians in Israel. There is no version of events where that can be tolerated.

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 12:44

Red Cross have been able to send a team into Gaza incl surgical trauma medics

Plus water purification tablets for 50000 people

ThinkWise · 27/10/2023 12:57

@feralunderclass so sorry, I watched the news about this family fleeing from northern gaza at the start, never ever thought this could happen them too.

Ahfeckingfeckit · 27/10/2023 13:22

It’s getting to the point where I can bear to turn the news in, just to see more bodies of children being dragged out of rubble.

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 13:29

@ProvincialLady1 my last reply, which you quoted, was in response to @WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps stating: I do believe the killing of German civilians was justified in the course of WWII bombing because we and the other Allies were fighting against the Nazis. My point was really regarding us deciding if some civilian deaths are justified and others are not. Anyway, it's a digression from the actual thread so happy to leave that particular discussion alone.

FrankieStein403 · 27/10/2023 13:35

Hamas bad - unconditionally yes.

Hamas hiding behind civilians - apparently, but why is this a surprise? Gaza doesn't exactly have open spaces, caves, islands, mountain bases etc.

Basically the IDF only have a failed strategy - bomb/shell civilians, presumably in the hope that some hamas will be killed and the civilians will turn against hamas. That has failed multiple times and will fail again.

Orde Wingate (cf chindits) was the guy who worked out how to fight a guerilla war - the IDF just repeat what they did before in the hope that the outcome will change - the definition of insanity. In the meantime civilians die and hate festers.

Toothyfruity · 27/10/2023 13:41

Can someone explain to me - are the Israeli hostages all in the tunnels underground in Gaza?

Roste · 27/10/2023 13:44

So sorry @feralunderclass , you must be feeling devastated today. May they all rest in peace.

ProvincialLady1 · 27/10/2023 13:47

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 13:29

@ProvincialLady1 my last reply, which you quoted, was in response to @WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps stating: I do believe the killing of German civilians was justified in the course of WWII bombing because we and the other Allies were fighting against the Nazis. My point was really regarding us deciding if some civilian deaths are justified and others are not. Anyway, it's a digression from the actual thread so happy to leave that particular discussion alone.

Well, in that case it would depend whether you agree the objectives are/were justified and the actions necessary and proportional. But I don't think saying "civilian deaths are justified" is the right way to put it, personally, because the aim should always be to achieve the objectives while avoiding the killing of civilians as much as humanly possible. The thing is that we can never really calculate how many lives are saved, or made bearable, by defensive action. So in a sense there's another side of the scales we're not seeing which is to rid the world of an organisation that is perpetrating evil, and will continue to do that if allowed to. I don't think anyone is safer if terrorists are appeased or left to carry on their objectives, so I would say Israel have been left with no good options, and ultimately they have a duty to keep their own people safe. Whether their methods are effective or proportionate, I don't really have the expertise to say and I'm wary of being in any way dismissive about the cost in human lives.

Toothyfruity · 27/10/2023 13:48

@feralunderclass the degree of loss in it that family is unimaginable. I hope they stop bombing civilians soon.

ProvincialLady1 · 27/10/2023 13:49

FrankieStein403 · 27/10/2023 13:35

Hamas bad - unconditionally yes.

Hamas hiding behind civilians - apparently, but why is this a surprise? Gaza doesn't exactly have open spaces, caves, islands, mountain bases etc.

Basically the IDF only have a failed strategy - bomb/shell civilians, presumably in the hope that some hamas will be killed and the civilians will turn against hamas. That has failed multiple times and will fail again.

Orde Wingate (cf chindits) was the guy who worked out how to fight a guerilla war - the IDF just repeat what they did before in the hope that the outcome will change - the definition of insanity. In the meantime civilians die and hate festers.

You think they have no choice but to use schools, homes and hospitals? I would think they're more resourceful than that. It's a deliberate strategy.

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 14:05

ProvincialLady1 · 27/10/2023 13:49

You think they have no choice but to use schools, homes and hospitals? I would think they're more resourceful than that. It's a deliberate strategy.

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Being resourceful doesn't create space

Have you looked at the satellite maps of pre-war Gaza?

Where do you think they should be hiding?

Not denying that there isn't using the locals as human shields but be realistic

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 14:07

@ProvincialLady1 there is no easy answer to any of this.

ketchup07070 · 27/10/2023 15:33

@feralunderclass So sorry to hear this news. It is a tragic loss of life.

localnotail · 27/10/2023 18:09

@Toothyfruity nobody knows where they are, no one is even sure they are alive. I read somewhere that Hamas said they have been "looked after" by civilians, and that 50 of them have been killed by bombing.
I would suspect that most of them are dead, tbh.

localnotail · 27/10/2023 18:14

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 14:05

Being resourceful doesn't create space

Have you looked at the satellite maps of pre-war Gaza?

Where do you think they should be hiding?

Not denying that there isn't using the locals as human shields but be realistic

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I think, sadly, there is probably someone who is in Hamas in pretty much every extended family in Gaza. There are about 100k Hamas fighters, and 2mln people there - that's 1:20. So yes, where they would be hiding - in family homes, in tunnels under schools and hospitals, in mosques... its really, really awful.

Oliotya · 27/10/2023 18:25

localnotail · 27/10/2023 18:14

I think, sadly, there is probably someone who is in Hamas in pretty much every extended family in Gaza. There are about 100k Hamas fighters, and 2mln people there - that's 1:20. So yes, where they would be hiding - in family homes, in tunnels under schools and hospitals, in mosques... its really, really awful.

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Hamas has nowhere near 100k fighters.

Oliotya · 27/10/2023 18:27

Meanwhile the internet in Gaza has been cut off just as the ground invasion ramps up. They couldn't wipe out the journalists in time so they cut them off instead.

ketchup07070 · 27/10/2023 18:28

All comms in |Gaza have been cut. There's no internet or mobile phone service, according to Guardian live. This is pretty horrifying. No one can call for help now.