Page 11 | To be horrified re the 2000+ children killed in Gaza.

SoShallINever · 2023-10-24T21:57:20+00:00

The news tonight was unbearable. I am sickened that the West is not calling for a ceasefire or some restraint. I found out today that Gaza is almost exactly the same size as the small Hebridean island of Jura. But whereas Jura has a few hundred residents, Gaza has 2.4 million packed in. You couldn't throw a stone into Gaza without it hitting someone, never mind a missile. The children of Gaza are not terrorists and I wish Israel would stop.

ssd · 26/10/2023 09:19

Thank you for posting that @Cockerdileteeth

He talks utter sense.

MissyB1 · 26/10/2023 09:38

@Cockerdileteeth
brilliant post.

Coughingdodger · 26/10/2023 10:56

@Cockerdileteeth
Thank you.
These views should be more highlighted in the media.

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 07:42

Killing innocent civilians has always been absolutely barbaric, but has also been a (strategic) part of many battles/wars - just look at some of the WW2 bombing raids, carried out by both sides, Dresden and Coventry for example. Nobody would deny that National Socialism had to be eradicated but by any means necessary?

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 08:11

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 07:42

Killing innocent civilians has always been absolutely barbaric, but has also been a (strategic) part of many battles/wars - just look at some of the WW2 bombing raids, carried out by both sides, Dresden and Coventry for example. Nobody would deny that National Socialism had to be eradicated but by any means necessary?

Dresden was awful 900000 people died in one night - think the Geneva Convention came about because of this and other events where large no of civilians died

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 08:23

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 08:11

Dresden was awful 900000 people died in one night - think the Geneva Convention came about because of this and other events where large no of civilians died

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Yes, I only learnt just how bad it was fairly recently.

I suppose my point really is that killing innocents is nothing new, and some people find their reasons to somehow justify some deaths more than others, based on their stand point. It's all beyond horrific, yet it continues. 😪

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 08:28

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 08:11

Dresden was awful 900000 people died in one night - think the Geneva Convention came about because of this and other events where large no of civilians died

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Oops typo 90k people died not 900000 - it was bad enough at that

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 27/10/2023 08:36

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 08:28

Oops typo 90k people died not 900000 - it was bad enough at that

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Dresden’s own municipal investigation after the war put the figure for deaths at 25,000.

I can’t say I find the bombing of Dresden very upsetting. It might have been towards the end of the war but it was still perfectly justified, particularly given the knowledge, or lack of it, among the Allies about the likely course of the following months. Allies who were, after all, still engaged in a fight with Nazism.

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 09:36

Sorry @WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps you're correct about the final death toll

Still a significant loss of life

Cockerdileteeth · 27/10/2023 09:39

@Coughingdodger there was some press coverage of the letter, which is where I saw it, and one of the signatories was interviewed on 5 Live
But measured, calm and careful lawyers don't generally make the most exciting media, so...
It's a very human, clear headed and empathetic interview with a powerful concluding message:
"International law puts humanity as sovereign over state...
It seems to me, particularly in times of great challenge and great stress, that ubuntu - 'I am, therefore you are' - and that there is an international law and it's a humanities law - are the means to navigate this terrible time.
Less rhetoric, less partisanship, more imagination. Bloody difficult. But that's what I think is important."

Danny Friedman KC interview on BBC 5 Live

Danny Friedman KC, one of 8 Jewish lawyers to sign a letter condemning Hamas's attacks on Israel but urging Israel to respect international law in its respon...

https://youtu.be/8I3L2UvG_A8

Lampzade · 27/10/2023 09:42

Toothyfruity · 24/10/2023 23:31

It's horrific. And the support from the US, UK and EU is beyond fucked up. All have completely lost credibility in terms of having any moral standing in any conflict ever again in the future.

God love the poor babies and children in Gaza and their parents and families. It's so sad. I'm so sorry for them.

Yep

Lampzade · 27/10/2023 09:46

Cockerdileteeth · 26/10/2023 09:16

I'm appalled by some of what I've read here.

Feeling horror, and compassion for the dead and the grieving, both Israeli and Palestinian, really doesn't equate to being anti-semitic or an apologist for terrorism as seems to be being suggested.

Lord Neuberger and 7 other leading and highly respected Jewish lawyers said it well in their open letter last week:

"Just as international law provides the means for categorising and criminalising the barbaric acts of Hamas, so too does it provide a framework for governing how Israel must respond. Any nation, conducting any armed conflict, no matter what the provocation, is bound in law to comply with all the “laws of war”. The laws of war are not pacifist. Rather, they are the opposite — they are an admission that there are occasions when war is necessary. They are designed to ensure that when war must be conducted, there are limits on what harm can be done to other human beings.

These laws apply irrespective of the level of outrageous conduct of an enemy and no
exceptions to those rules can be derived from the level of suffering caused by Hamas’s actions.

There are some aspects of Israel’s response that already cause significant concern. International law forbids sieges of civilian populations. Gaza is home to some 2mn fellow human beings (almost half of whom are children) and it would be a grave violation of international law to hold them under siege and while doing so deprive them of basic necessiƟes such as food and water. To be clear, collective punishment is prohibited by the laws of war. Equally, international law requires combatants to ensure minimum destruction to civilian life and infrastructure. An intent to cause indiscriminate damage, rather than behaving in a precise manner to minimise damage would, if established, constitute a grave violation of international law. In the conduct of any military campaign, politicians and commanders alike must be careful to ensure that their words do not imply to their troops that the laws of war can be disregarded, nor employ language whose effect is to dehumanise a civilian population.

In these early days when emotions are so understandably raw, many might be reluctant to remind Israel of its international law obligations, considering to do so insensitive or inappropriate. However, we disagree. In these times of pain and terror the notion that there are laws that we must all live by is challenging but essential. Jewish history teaches us that we cannot give up on them."

Great post

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 09:52

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 27/10/2023 08:36

Dresden’s own municipal investigation after the war put the figure for deaths at 25,000.

I can’t say I find the bombing of Dresden very upsetting. It might have been towards the end of the war but it was still perfectly justified, particularly given the knowledge, or lack of it, among the Allies about the likely course of the following months. Allies who were, after all, still engaged in a fight with Nazism.

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How was it justified, knowing what the civilian casualty numbers would be?
(Let's face it, even with the previous typo the numbers are still horrific).
It seems that you are suggesting civilian casualties were more ok then than they are now? I find that a tad odd.

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 09:53

Not a lot of news about what's happening wrt the Gazan [non-Hamas] civilians overnight - one of the Hamas 'masterminds' behind the 7/10 attack was reported dead yesterday good news in anyones book

Small amount of mainly food aid yesterday [8 trucks] some of the hold-up seems to be due to to all the lorries being un-packed and thoroughly searched before being allowed into Gaza - hopefully that will become a more efficient process

Yesterday was the day the fuel was supposed to run out for the hospital generators and the hospitals being closed. I can barely imagine what that's like and perhaps we don't need to have it spelt out as clearly awful situation

Facebook have been closing some large pro-Palestinian sites so less citizen journalism as well as less ranting/anti-semitism, journalists and aid workers presumably also effected by shortages/bombing/can't leave so making it difficult to report do their jobs

Likely less and less news in future

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 27/10/2023 10:12

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 09:52

How was it justified, knowing what the civilian casualty numbers would be?
(Let's face it, even with the previous typo the numbers are still horrific).
It seems that you are suggesting civilian casualties were more ok then than they are now? I find that a tad odd.

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I don’t understand you. I’ve explained my view of the justification for bombing Dresden. Civilian areas were bombed by all sides in WWII.

Berlin, Hamburg, Essen, Cologne etc, were all heavily bombed. Do you think that was wrong?

What’s your point?

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 10:16

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 27/10/2023 10:12

I don’t understand you. I’ve explained my view of the justification for bombing Dresden. Civilian areas were bombed by all sides in WWII.

Berlin, Hamburg, Essen, Cologne etc, were all heavily bombed. Do you think that was wrong?

What’s your point?

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My question is why do you think civilian deaths were more justified then than they are in any current situation? Do you feel that civilian deaths are more justified in some wars than others? How does that stance come about? Are there other wars where civilian casualties were also justified, and some where they weren't?

I am aware of the extent of the bombing in WW2, from both sides, and also bombing/attacks in other wars.

feralunderclass · 27/10/2023 10:18

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 09:53

Not a lot of news about what's happening wrt the Gazan [non-Hamas] civilians overnight - one of the Hamas 'masterminds' behind the 7/10 attack was reported dead yesterday good news in anyones book

Small amount of mainly food aid yesterday [8 trucks] some of the hold-up seems to be due to to all the lorries being un-packed and thoroughly searched before being allowed into Gaza - hopefully that will become a more efficient process

Yesterday was the day the fuel was supposed to run out for the hospital generators and the hospitals being closed. I can barely imagine what that's like and perhaps we don't need to have it spelt out as clearly awful situation

Facebook have been closing some large pro-Palestinian sites so less citizen journalism as well as less ranting/anti-semitism, journalists and aid workers presumably also effected by shortages/bombing/can't leave so making it difficult to report do their jobs

Likely less and less news in future

Edited

Residential areas in Khan Younis were bombed overnight. 29 deaths from one family alone. They were friends of mine, we're very good to me, their dc were all British passport holders. All dead now 💔

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 27/10/2023 10:30

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 10:16

My question is why do you think civilian deaths were more justified then than they are in any current situation? Do you feel that civilian deaths are more justified in some wars than others? How does that stance come about? Are there other wars where civilian casualties were also justified, and some where they weren't?

I am aware of the extent of the bombing in WW2, from both sides, and also bombing/attacks in other wars.

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Um, well, I don’t believe any civilian deaths caused by the Nazis (including the murder of 6m Jews) was justified, no. Because the regime that did this set out to do it because it was Nazi.

I do believe the killing of German civilians was justified in the course of WWII bombing because we and the other Allies were fighting against the Nazis.

Efacsen · 27/10/2023 10:33

feralunderclass · 27/10/2023 10:18

Residential areas in Khan Younis were bombed overnight. 29 deaths from one family alone. They were friends of mine, we're very good to me, their dc were all British passport holders. All dead now 💔

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Very sorry to hear this

All the bombing news overnight was about the US/Syrian stuff

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 10:36

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 27/10/2023 10:30

Um, well, I don’t believe any civilian deaths caused by the Nazis (including the murder of 6m Jews) was justified, no. Because the regime that did this set out to do it because it was Nazi.

I do believe the killing of German civilians was justified in the course of WWII bombing because we and the other Allies were fighting against the Nazis.

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So, essentially what you are saying is that it's ok to kill civilians in some wars/battles, but not others, based on whether you think the cause is valid or not?

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 10:37

feralunderclass · 27/10/2023 10:18

Residential areas in Khan Younis were bombed overnight. 29 deaths from one family alone. They were friends of mine, we're very good to me, their dc were all British passport holders. All dead now 💔

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Very sorry to hear your news @feralunderclass.

localnotail · 27/10/2023 10:43

Every time I see this the blame is always on Israel. So where is Hamas in all this? Israel is going after known terrorist targets - tunnel entrances, rocket launching sites, known Hamas operatives - so Hamas makes sure all of these are located in densely populated areas, sometimes close to schools and hospitals; they also prevent people from moving away, not allowing them to use bomb shelters and generally use Palestinians as a human shields. They have no respect for life, they teach children to be suicide bombers and generally are a medieval death cult. They are also constantly firing DIY rockets towards Israel, and these rockets sometimes fall down in Gaza - in fact, they probably create more damage in Gaza since Israel intercepts most of them over their side.

I would also like to point out that Hamas are running all the hospitals in Gaza, they are in charge of healthcare. I would not put it past them putting civilians in the way of harm deliberately.

Bombing will stop if Hamas releases all the hostages and gives up people responsible for 7th October attack. But they would much rather have dead children on both sides. Which is horrendous. But I haven't so far seen any anti-Hamas demonstrations anywhere. People are quick to say "not all Palestinians are Hamas" but even Palestinians abroad are not very vocal regarding overthrowing Hamas or calling them to release hostages.

But yes, poor kids. Both Israeli and Palestinian.

localnotail · 27/10/2023 10:44

@feralunderclass OMG how awful ((( I'm so sorry

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 27/10/2023 10:57

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 10:36

So, essentially what you are saying is that it's ok to kill civilians in some wars/battles, but not others, based on whether you think the cause is valid or not?

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Yes, of course. That’s the normal, universal view.

It’s why people are against Nazis and in favour of liberal democracies fighting against Nazis.

I can’t work out whether you’re for or against the Allies’ attacks on Nazi Germany. Or for or against the American attacks on Imperial Japan, come to that.

sollenwir · 27/10/2023 11:13

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 27/10/2023 10:57

Yes, of course. That’s the normal, universal view.

It’s why people are against Nazis and in favour of liberal democracies fighting against Nazis.

I can’t work out whether you’re for or against the Allies’ attacks on Nazi Germany. Or for or against the American attacks on Imperial Japan, come to that.

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I am not sure that is 'the normal, universal view' though I accept it's common view.

I understand that in most wars civilian casualties/loss of life are inevitable.

I don't understand how we can justify one loss of life more than any other though, based solely on the country they live in/who their leaders are/which terrorists have taken up residence there/what propaganda they were exposed to while growing up and so on.

We cannot write lives off as more or less valuable just because we do or don't take the same view as those doing the attacking.

I used WW2 as an example, as many of us are familiar with it, but we could choose any war/battle. I am not saying that some of the attacks in WW2 were not justified, what I am saying is that no civilian death should be seen as 'more justified'. It's a dangerous slope when we look at it like that.