Be ashamed of yourselves

[Thisworld10]

That’s right be ashamed of yourselves. I come in these threads thinking I’ll read someone saying what’s happening to the people of Palestine is awful but what I end up reading is people saying they brought it on themselves because they elected Hamas.

So, what if they elected Hamas. We elected the Conservative party but they don’t speak for me, they certainly don’t act on behalf of the everyday citizen of this country. Be ashamed of yourselves for not valuing the lives of Palestinians but putting so much value on the lives of Israelis.

be ashamed of yourselves for justifying the ethnic cleansing of over 2 million people because Hamas attacked Israel in early October. Be ashamed of yourselves for standing for genocide in 2023!

be ashamed of yourselves for saying we would never allow the holocaust to happen again yet Palestinians are held in an open air prison. It’s literally been called a concentration camp, with no way in or out and they are being rampaged with bombs, white phosphorus bombs being dropped on them non stop. On Sunday night 400 died because of the bombs, over 2000 children are now dead. Be ashamed of yourselves for justifying their deaths and blaming them for it.

be ashamed of yourselves for condoning the protestors for wanting Palestinians to have a right to live a peaceful existence.

be ashamed for bringing history into justifying the slaughter of so many people. Yes, Palestinians did welcome Israelis into the holy land in the 1940’s, it doesn’t mean they get to die now. Yes, Israel has a right to exist, but that doesn’t mean Palestine doesn’t. Yes, Israel has land grabbed and continues to do so but no one is allowed to say anything. Yes, their is no Hamas in the West Bank but why are the Palestinian still being killed. Why are so many people illegally arrested mainly kids - held for decades in Israel prisons. Are they not hostages? Yea, Israel asked asked the Palestinians to move to the south with 24 hours notice for their ‘safety’ yet they are being killed in the south.

be ashamed if you ask any one who stands to defend the rights of Palestinians if they condemn Hamas. Everyone condemns Hamas. Being pro Palestinian doesn’t mean your pro-Hamas. I also condemn the barbarian acts of genocide committed by Israel. I condemn the open displays of hate for Palestinian people - calling them human animals etc.

Be ashamed if you think it’s so great they are letting a trickle of aid in but no fuel to run hospitals. Electricity ran out last night in the hospital. So many babies reliant in incubators will die as a result. be ashamed if you think it’s okay for world leaders to not call for a ceasefire and instead show 100% support to what Israel
is doing.

no one has the right to hold one life more dearer than another.

you should be ashamed of yourselves for valuing some over others.

I also love that people have forgotten about the Arab conquest, when the Saudi Arabs conquered the entire of the Middle East and forcibly converted all the people of those countries. Including forced conversions of Christians and Jews in North Africa.

But yes, entirely oppressed people.

All ancient history now I've been told. The refusal of the Arabs to give the formerly subjugated people, both Lebanese Christian and Jewish, a single square inch of that land is completely unrelated. They really meant to show some remorse and make it up to them, just haven't quite gotten around to it yet. Also still having trouble ending the ongoing second class citizen status of non-muslims within many of their own states, coincidentally enough.

Don't forget the Romans. Maybe we should give London back to Italy. It was theirs after all thousands of years ago.

Bye

Leaving so soon? But you were very interested in history a few posts ago, albeit only as far back at 1948? You no doubt really wanted to understand the roots of the current conflict as the only way of solving it. What happened?

Ok so can I get this straight? It’s ok to call history and vacuums into question if it supports the left wing narrative that Israeli’s are fascist oppressors but no further back than that as it shows that narrative up as being a bit iffy?

Also, OP, we are happy to hand wring about Palestinian lives being lost and Palestinian babies killed but not Israeli lives? Not Israeli babies that were beheaded by some mad bastard terrorist group? Not Israeli children?

All lives are valid my arse OP.

@Pollyputhekettleon

It is very interesting that people can’t back up their view beyond sound bites. I blame Tick Tock slacktivism. How hard is it to read a book and get properly informed?

Also, love the reference to the Romans as a great self own. As if the Romans weren’t the invading force that displaced people all over the world and then converted them to Christianity, including murdering and dispelling hundreds of thousands of Jews from Judea to settle the third Jewish revolt. If that analogy is going to work then the Arab conquerors would be the Romans and the Jewish people the British. Who was it that founded Jerusalem again?

@Ratsoffasinkingsauage so your telling me that because I have no skin in the game, as you put it I should look away and not condemn the massacre that is happening?

sound bite campaigning? End a war? If I could end a war by writing a thread I would write it a million times! Just a note to you this isn’t a war. The Palestinians can’t defend themselves - this is a genocide.

you’ve said this:

‘Quite frankly you assessment of the situation comes of as some privileged western person sticking their beak into someone else’s conflict and shit stirring. You don’t get to tell people in another country and culture how to feel about things. You don’t get to dictate based on your own morality and beliefs what everyone else does.’

i am a privileged western person - you are absolutely right. I am able to switch my phone off and go to bed at night knowing I’ll wake up in the morning. I am safe. So your telling me because of that I can’t feel for a displaced people. If I was saying Israel has a right to annihilation would it be okay to stick my beak in. then? You say I shouldn’t stick my beak in someone else’s conflict and shit stir. I’m not shit stirring. Also, isn’t this exactly what Macron, Biden, Sunak and co are doing? Aren’t they sticking their beaks as you put it in someone else’s conflict? How exactly is it shit stirring to feel for people who can’t stop this from happening to themselves, who can’t leave the hell they are in. I’m not telling people in another country or culture how to feel - I’m telling all people they should be ashamed of themselves if they support genocide.

People don’t have to listen to my words on the internet, they can ignore it, I’m not forcing people to read my thread.

and just a note to anyone who thinks I don’t care about innocent civilians in Israel. I was as appalled as anyone when that attack happened on 7th October but if revenge is what Israel wanted then they’ve had it over and over. 1 child dying every 15 minutes in Gaza isn’t acceptable and shouldn’t be.

i don’t care about what happened a million years ago. Humanity need to prevail today and stop this bloodshed. Israeli government and not it citizens can make the choice to stop this but they aren’t. How is starving an entire population of people affecting Hamas? Or is the argument Hamas are using them as human shields so we might as well starve, dehydrate and kill them all so they can’t be used as shields. This is the collective punishment of people who haven’t done anything to deserve it.

what do you think will happen when a child sees their entire family blown up and he’s the only one left? Do you think he’ll think my parents deserved it because they were born here and Israel is right they are just human shields so it’s okay or do you think he’ll grow up wanting revenge.

two wrongs don’t make a right. This is unequivocally wrong.

People don’t have to listen to my words on the internet, they can ignore it, I’m not forcing people to read my thread.

Do you have any words on the internet about the c.30,000 children killed in Syria?

@Thisworld10

Switching off your phone for a bit is probably a good idea. You seem to have become caught up in very narrow lines of thinking.

If you cannot see that peace in this situation cannot be achieved until all parties are willing to come to the table- the Palestinians included- then I cannot help you.

Is the Israeli government right? No
Is Hamas right? No
Are people being used as cannon fodder and human shields whether they deserve it or not? Absolutely yes.

If either side could admit this then there might be a chance. But they can’t. And taking sides online and sharing propaganda slogans and sound bites like ‘open prison’ and ‘apartheid’ and ‘colonisers’ just stokes further tensions and propagates half truths.

I feel tremendously sad for all the deaths in Israel and in Gaza. Most people there did not ask for this. But would a ceasefire by Israel end this? No, because Hamas will never end this. It is their reason for existing. This doesn’t end until radical Islamic separatist can admit that Israel has a right to exist and they stop raising money and buying weapons to propagate a war that their grandparents started in 1948.

And I find it utterly disgusting that anyone can ever say that terrorism is a legitimate form of self expression against oppression. If you really think violence is never the answer then you could easily condemn terrorism. All terrorism, not just from the people you don’t support.

I think the best judge of person’s moral integrity is how they treat their enemies. If you cannot allow your enemies the same fair judgement as your friends then you are not the good person that you think you are.

It’s war by social media.

The fashionable view seems to be that Palestinians are the underdog, crushed by the boot of Israel. I used to just accept this narrative without reflection, assuming that any country with US backing would naturally have an unfair advantage. But recent events have made me curious to find out more.

I never really considered that Hamas has an operational budget of over $300 million (see e.g. here), and for the past couple of decades could have chosen to spend this on improving the infrastructure, e.g. creating a “iron dome” missile defence system such as Israel has had had in place for several years to protect them against constant attack from Gaza. Instead, they have invested it all in building underground tunnels and setting up missile launchers and ammunition stores around kindergartens, hospitals, mosques etc.

Now, why would they do that? Obviously, to use their own people as human shields. For years!

Would this strategy have worked if they knew that Israel didn’t care about killing Gazan civilians?

You talk about ethnic cleansing? Hamas’s covenant sets out quite clearly their genocidal intentions towards Jews. And Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Hamas’s founding leader, warns that their ultimate goal is an Islamic state not just locally, but globally. “First they came for the Jews…” was never so apt.

Hamas now have everyone twisted round their little finger with their avalanche of images of dead babies. Of course, everyone is screaming at Israel to stop. Who can look at a dead or injured child without desperately wanting these horrors to end immediately?! Much easier to weep over gore porn than question why we are seeing it.

Israel, more reticent about the dignity of the dead and with respect for their families, have discreetly shared glimpses of their own horrors with global journalists. War-hardened reporters wept and retched and have tried their best to express the global urgency of dealing with this level of sadistic brutality.

And no wonder Israel felt the need to correct the dominant narrative. Hamas are winning the propaganda war. Even a regular poster on one of these threads summed up the 7 Oct atrocities as being “shot at close range by a rifle.” Yet it’s been over 2 weeks now! Plenty of time to find out more, if you actually cared. Probably not as sensational as the gruesome Hamas images, admittedly. But you might find the patience to just watch a pretty girl talking quietly for <10 minutes (or speed up the playback if that’s too long for you). There are plenty more on YouTube.

I don’t know how we get out of this shithole, but it’s certainly not by pointing the finger at Israel and ignoring the real monster in our midst.

@Alcemeg

I wish I could like your post a thousand times.

@Thisworld10

'i don’t care about what happened a million years ago.'

This is a strawman, as you know. If you actually cared about stopping the bloodshed you would want to understand the causes of it. Which you know you couldn't do without understanding its history, and therefore the motives of all participants. Yet you choose to dismiss the importance of that and want us all to focus solely on the present.

'what do you think will happen when a child sees their entire family blown up and he’s the only one left? Do you think he’ll think my parents deserved it because they were born here and Israel is right they are just human shields so it’s okay or do you think he’ll grow up wanting revenge.'

Your belief that this is all motivated simply by revenge on the Palestinian side is completely false. As you would know if you were willing to acknowledge the history of the conflict.

Just to answer the OP's OP:

Be ashamed of yourself for not finding out more about Hamas and how they operate.

Be ashamed of yourself for playing a numbers game with human lives.

Be ashamed of yourself for bandying about terms like "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" as though you understand them.

Be ashamed of yourself for misappropriating the term "Holocaust."

Be ashamed of yourself for thinking it's great that people are publicly celebrating Israel's trauma.

Be ashamed of yourself for failing to call Hamas to account for the things you are blaming Israel for.

Be ashamed of yourself for starting a whole thread telling people to be ashamed of themselves.

Edited to add that I am not Jewish, by the way.

I am very please both we pro Israel and the pro Hamas or pro Palestinian posters all do post on MN. It is very important because our democracy allows freedom of speak, unlike many of the UK's enemies do not. Also it enables each of us to hear the views of otherse. It has not changed me from my pro Israel and pro democracy stance against the UK's enemies like Iran, Russia etc but it is helpful to hear all the views.

I feel very proud to be part of the UK as a UK Christian who supports democracy and the freedoms Israel allows but most muslims states do not. I hope those other states will try to learn from us and improve to get themselves up to our standards. We can all hope and pray for that.

I agree with UNICEF

UNICEF: Gaza child casualties 'a stain on our collective conscience

'UNICEF has called the number of child casualties in Gaza "a growing stain on our collective conscience" as it called for an urgent ceasefire.
The charity said "almost every child" in the region had been exposed to "deeply distressing events and trauma", as Israeli airstrikes cause widespread destruction and food and water run out.

And I stand by this. I think at a minimum all those who wish for peace and a resolution to the fighting would agree

@Xenia 100% agree with you about freedom of speech.
But the freedom of speech you vouch for in Israel is not as free as you think it is. I'm not comparing it with any other country like Russia Iran etc but just pointing out that even in Israel there are those who are persecuted if they go against the Israeli narrative

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/an-atmosphere-of-fear-free-speech-under-threat-in-israel-activists-say

@etmoietmoietmoi actually I do but this thread is about the people of Palestine.

@Alcemeg im not bandying about any terms lightly. It is actually what is happening. If you can’t comprehend that, then that isn’t on me. Maybe look it up. Jewish currents and genocide watch have both called it a genocide.
I’m not playing a numbers game - These numbers are real, the amount of people dying is real. Where did I say I think it’s great people are celebrating Israel’s trauma? I haven’t failed to call out hamas. I think what your trying to do is turn what I’ve written into something else. It’s not working.

@Xenia im not sure those other states want to be up to the standards of our world leaders who are giving Israel the green light to do what it wants. What gives our world leaders the right to decide what is right or wrong? Other world leaders disagree with them. The UN has been saying it’s wrong. I read today that Israel has broken atleast 68 international laws.

@Parkingt111 i agree with your UN post.

what I don’t understand is why can’t people openly sympathise with the people of Palestine. Reading some comments on here anyone would think I was a Hamas supporter because I can’t bear to see all these Palestinian painful deaths. It is a collective punishment of people who did nothing wrong. It’s wrong, utterly wrong what happened in Israel as I’ve already said but that doesn’t justify or make right what is happening now. what is happening to the people of Palestine over the last 18/19 days is wrong.

Heard on the news this morning that a Palestinian child is being killed every 13 minutes at the moment - that it totally wrong in anyone’s world.

Agreed.

@steppemum it’s not the world that has a lot to answer for it is only the west. Particularly England and US.

get your facts straight

@Xenia you have been brainwashed.

there is good and bad on both sides, you should start to open your mind up and accept this

Ok, so what is the break down of the deaths that the IDF are responsible for, vs the ones Hamas are responsible for? Do you know?

@Thisworld10 I’m sorry if you feel I’ve twisted your words; believe it or not, I’m rather conflict avoidant! 😊 And obviously, like anyone, I’d much rather Israel stopped bombing!

Hamas are playing dirty, though. You can be sure that their leaders are taking shelter where they know Israel is forbidden to attack. They’ve always preferred to control their gullible pawns from a safe distance, e.g. West Bank (see here) and Qatar (see here). I’m sure you don’t need me to point this out to you.

Hamas must be laughing up their sleeves every time we swallow their propaganda and dance in the streets in support of “Palestine.”

In the current circumstances, anyone not helping Israel to identify and locate them more accurately is helping Hamas and certainly not helping innocent Gazans caught in the conflict.

This is particularly true since it became clear yesterday that hundreds and possibly thousands of Gazan civilians were significantly involved in the unspeakable terror attacks of 7 October. Sorting out “Hamas” from “innocent civilian” is going to require close cooperation on all sides, and I hope Israel are finding a way to secure it.