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Conflict in the Middle East

Be ashamed of yourselves

802 replies

Thisworld10 · 24/10/2023 09:42

That’s right be ashamed of yourselves. I come in these threads thinking I’ll read someone saying what’s happening to the people of Palestine is awful but what I end up reading is people saying they brought it on themselves because they elected Hamas.

So, what if they elected Hamas. We elected the Conservative party but they don’t speak for me, they certainly don’t act on behalf of the everyday citizen of this country. Be ashamed of yourselves for not valuing the lives of Palestinians but putting so much value on the lives of Israelis.

be ashamed of yourselves for justifying the ethnic cleansing of over 2 million people because Hamas attacked Israel in early October. Be ashamed of yourselves for standing for genocide in 2023!

be ashamed of yourselves for saying we would never allow the holocaust to happen again yet Palestinians are held in an open air prison. It’s literally been called a concentration camp, with no way in or out and they are being rampaged with bombs, white phosphorus bombs being dropped on them non stop. On Sunday night 400 died because of the bombs, over 2000 children are now dead. Be ashamed of yourselves for justifying their deaths and blaming them for it.

be ashamed of yourselves for condoning the protestors for wanting Palestinians to have a right to live a peaceful existence.

be ashamed for bringing history into justifying the slaughter of so many people. Yes, Palestinians did welcome Israelis into the holy land in the 1940’s, it doesn’t mean they get to die now. Yes, Israel has a right to exist, but that doesn’t mean Palestine doesn’t. Yes, Israel has land grabbed and continues to do so but no one is allowed to say anything. Yes, their is no Hamas in the West Bank but why are the Palestinian still being killed. Why are so many people illegally arrested mainly kids - held for decades in Israel prisons. Are they not hostages? Yea, Israel asked asked the Palestinians to move to the south with 24 hours notice for their ‘safety’ yet they are being killed in the south.

be ashamed if you ask any one who stands to defend the rights of Palestinians if they condemn Hamas. Everyone condemns Hamas. Being pro Palestinian doesn’t mean your pro-Hamas. I also condemn the barbarian acts of genocide committed by Israel. I condemn the open displays of hate for Palestinian people - calling them human animals etc.

Be ashamed if you think it’s so great they are letting a trickle of aid in but no fuel to run hospitals. Electricity ran out last night in the hospital. So many babies reliant in incubators will die as a result. be ashamed if you think it’s okay for world leaders to not call for a ceasefire and instead show 100% support to what Israel
is doing.

no one has the right to hold one life more dearer than another.

you should be ashamed of yourselves for valuing some over others.

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112
Parkingt111 · 25/10/2023 14:31

Not only dying from bombing but starvation too!!

Oxfam: Food being used as 'weapon of war' against Gaza civilians
Oxfam says just 2% of usual food supplies have been delivered to Gaza since Israel imposed a total blockade on the region.
The charity said starvation was being used as a "weapon of war" against Palestinians, as it renewed its call for more food and water, as well as other essentials such as fuel, to be allowed to enter.

The equivalent of one lorry every 14 minutes would enter Gaza prior to the conflict, it said. There have been just 62 lorries carrying aid in the past five days. Only 30 of these contained food, and some "not exclusively so".
Sally Abi Khalil, Oxfam's regional Middle East director, called the situation "nothing short of horrific".
"Where is the humanity?" she said. "Millions of civilians are being collectively punished in full view of the world, there can be no justification for using starvation as a weapon of war."

Parkingt111 · 25/10/2023 14:31

Millions of civilians are being collectively punished in full view of the world, there can be no justification for using starvation as a weapon of war."

Alcemeg · 25/10/2023 14:46

With respect, I think we should be careful who we appoint as arbiters of "baddy" versus "goody."

Just for example:
Oxfam
United Nations
UNICEF

Oxfam - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxfam#Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

Parker231 · 25/10/2023 15:04

RaquelSurprise · 25/10/2023 14:17

Ok, so what is the break down of the deaths that the IDF are responsible for, vs the ones Hamas are responsible for? Do you know?

Have no idea - don’t think we will ever know. To a certain extent it’s irrelevant. Innocent lives (Israeli and Palestinian) are being lost. I heard that the Israelis had also bombed two airports in Syria.

An Israeli life isn’t worth anymore than a Palestinian and visa versa.

RaquelSurprise · 25/10/2023 15:19

@Thisworld10

what I don’t understand is why can’t people openly sympathise with the people of Palestine.

Yeah, I think the problem many people have with your, I would argue flawed, assessment of the existing situation is that you seem to be giving the Palestinian leadership a free pass when it comes to determining responsibility for everything that has happened up to this point. You just ignore Palestine’s history of initiating wars, their violence, their faulty leadership and - most crucially of all - their constant refusal to take opportunities for accommodation. You also seem to be infantilising the Palestinians, which is kind of condescending IMO.

The “leaders” of Gaza are adults with agency. They have sovereignty over their respective territories (Hamas even more so than the PA for instance, since there is obviously still a military occupation of the West Bank). They are the governing bodies of their people.

They have the resources their civilians need. The second in command at Hamas quite literally is worth more than Kim Kardashian.

Hamas clearly has enough fuel and water to continue its bombathon while Gazan civilians suffer from shortages.

The responsibility of a government is to take care of its people. Hamas are not babies. When they won their election in 2006 - and subsequently threw the opposition off buildings in 2007 - they took on the responsibility of taking care of the Palestinian people.

The idea that Israel is responsible for Palestinian civilians (such as supplying them with water and energy - which they don’t have to do by the way!) because Hamas cannot take care of them is racist, infantilizing, and orientalist. THEY are foregoing their responsibilities toward their own citizens.

Israel is responsible for Israelis. Hamas is supposed to be responsible for Gazans. Instead, they hoard their resources because they are more interested in slaughtering Jews than they are interested in taking on the responsibility that was bestowed upon them when they became the government of Gaza.

Moving on, I would also like to agree with the PPs who have pointed out your lack of interest in what occurred prior to 1948 is somewhat suspicious. Claiming that this whole dispute only took off from 1948 is certainly convenient, since it ignores the fact that Arabs had been massacring Jews in Palestine for centuries beforehand. And even more recently than that, towards the end of 1933, the Nazis themselves revealed that they had established a direct contact with the Arab leadership in Palestine, with the hopes of “adapting the Nazi program” to the Holy Land. To reiterate: the Nazis hoped to extend their antisemitic policies to the Holy Land, with the enthusiastic consent of the Palestinian Arab leadership.

Then as WWII progressed, the Palestinian leadership’s and the Nazi’s relationship grew stronger. In November of 1941, Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the leader of mandatory Palestine, met with German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and with Hitler himself. Hitler promised al-Husseini that once the German troops reached the Arab world, “Germany’s objective would then be solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere…”

In 1957, a top secret document came to light, which revealed that Germany and Italy recognized the right of the Arabs to “solve the Jewish question” in Palestine and other Arab nations. During the meeting, Hitler told the al-Husseini: “Germany is resolved, step by step, to ask one European nation after the other to solve its Jewish problem, and at the proper time to direct a similar appeal to non-European nations as well” and “Germany supports an uncompromising struggle against the Jews…[this] would include, of course, opposition to a Jewish homeland in Palestine, which is nothing more than a hub for the destructive influence of Jewish interests.”

So yeah, the roots of this conflict go way back, and if you don’t have the curiosity to even bother to read up on the history, then. “Shame on you” for posting about a highly sensitive, emotive - and still ongoing! - subject with ideas that are, at best, half baked.

Finally, this might be unpopular to say, but the fact that in this discussion we have to reaffirm every other sentence that we feel for innocent Palestinian civilians, when so many were of the pro-Palestine side - in the Middle East, across cities in US, in European cities like London, Manchester, Berlin etc. - we’re celebrating the massacre of 7 October is a fucking double standard.

That’s all.

Gruntsandgroans · 25/10/2023 15:32

The idea that Israel is responsible for Palestinian civilians (such as supplying them with water and energy - which they don’t have to do by the way!) because Hamas cannot take care of them is racist, infantilizing, and orientalist. THEY are foregoing their responsibilities toward their own citizens.

Israel are the occupying power though. Gaza is an occupied territory. As such Israel are responsible for the people that they have under occupation. That's just the way it goes. You can't keep people under occupation, impose blockades, control everything that comes in and out, restrict their ability to provide water for themselves by denying them the right to import the goods needed then just shrug your shoulders and say that you aren't responsible. Of course you are(you being Israel of course). I know that Israeli propaganda says that they are just being generous in giving all of this to the primitive Arabs over the fence but that isn't actually true. When Israel end their illegal occupation then they will cease to be responsible.

ChalkWitch · 25/10/2023 15:43

@RaquelSurprise Well said. Although I never thought I’d see Hamas and Kim Kardashian in the same sentence!

RaquelSurprise · 25/10/2023 16:11

Parker231 · 25/10/2023 15:04

Have no idea - don’t think we will ever know. To a certain extent it’s irrelevant. Innocent lives (Israeli and Palestinian) are being lost. I heard that the Israelis had also bombed two airports in Syria.

An Israeli life isn’t worth anymore than a Palestinian and visa versa.

Have no idea - don’t think we will ever know. To a certain extent it’s irrelevant. Innocent lives (Israeli and Palestinian) are being lost. I heard that the Israelis had also bombed two airports in Syria.

You say it’s irrelevant, but who is the aggressor here, so who therefore bears the weight of this responsibility….it’s Hamas isn’t it? Israel was attacked.

Israel have been clear - release the hostages and the bombardment will stop.

Israeli and Palestinian lives are equal (excluding Hamas of course, they have to be taken out) - the difference is that Israel is trying to minimise civilian casualties (via their advanced military hardware and “roof knocking”, or warnings) whereas Hamas kill their own and Israelis indiscriminately. They don’t care for life on either side.

And just a reminder that the terror has not stopped. Israel is under constant rocket fire from Gaza. Citizens around cities like Tel Aviv are still running with their children to the shelters many times a day terrified for their lives. Hezbollah is firing missiles daily from the Lebanese border. It's not all quiet now, or back to normal like some may believe.

Not to mention over 200 hostages who are
still held in Gaza.

The terrorists are still trying to infiltrate Israel, still constantly firing rockets, and are still trying to take innocent lives. Every day.

So what the Palestinians and the Israelis are dealing with a similar reality, yet there is only enough sympathy to around for the one’s whose leaders are the aggressors? That makes no sense. Unless you have another agenda?

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 16:38

RaquelSurprise · 25/10/2023 16:11

Have no idea - don’t think we will ever know. To a certain extent it’s irrelevant. Innocent lives (Israeli and Palestinian) are being lost. I heard that the Israelis had also bombed two airports in Syria.

You say it’s irrelevant, but who is the aggressor here, so who therefore bears the weight of this responsibility….it’s Hamas isn’t it? Israel was attacked.

Israel have been clear - release the hostages and the bombardment will stop.

Israeli and Palestinian lives are equal (excluding Hamas of course, they have to be taken out) - the difference is that Israel is trying to minimise civilian casualties (via their advanced military hardware and “roof knocking”, or warnings) whereas Hamas kill their own and Israelis indiscriminately. They don’t care for life on either side.

And just a reminder that the terror has not stopped. Israel is under constant rocket fire from Gaza. Citizens around cities like Tel Aviv are still running with their children to the shelters many times a day terrified for their lives. Hezbollah is firing missiles daily from the Lebanese border. It's not all quiet now, or back to normal like some may believe.

Not to mention over 200 hostages who are
still held in Gaza.

The terrorists are still trying to infiltrate Israel, still constantly firing rockets, and are still trying to take innocent lives. Every day.

So what the Palestinians and the Israelis are dealing with a similar reality, yet there is only enough sympathy to around for the one’s whose leaders are the aggressors? That makes no sense. Unless you have another agenda?

Dealing with a similar reality?

Have more than 5000 Israeli citizens died, with more ongoing every day? Is Israel running out of food, water, medicines and fuel? Have one million Israelis lost their homes - many permanently as they have been flattened?

Parker231 · 25/10/2023 16:43

RaquelSurprise · 25/10/2023 16:11

Have no idea - don’t think we will ever know. To a certain extent it’s irrelevant. Innocent lives (Israeli and Palestinian) are being lost. I heard that the Israelis had also bombed two airports in Syria.

You say it’s irrelevant, but who is the aggressor here, so who therefore bears the weight of this responsibility….it’s Hamas isn’t it? Israel was attacked.

Israel have been clear - release the hostages and the bombardment will stop.

Israeli and Palestinian lives are equal (excluding Hamas of course, they have to be taken out) - the difference is that Israel is trying to minimise civilian casualties (via their advanced military hardware and “roof knocking”, or warnings) whereas Hamas kill their own and Israelis indiscriminately. They don’t care for life on either side.

And just a reminder that the terror has not stopped. Israel is under constant rocket fire from Gaza. Citizens around cities like Tel Aviv are still running with their children to the shelters many times a day terrified for their lives. Hezbollah is firing missiles daily from the Lebanese border. It's not all quiet now, or back to normal like some may believe.

Not to mention over 200 hostages who are
still held in Gaza.

The terrorists are still trying to infiltrate Israel, still constantly firing rockets, and are still trying to take innocent lives. Every day.

So what the Palestinians and the Israelis are dealing with a similar reality, yet there is only enough sympathy to around for the one’s whose leaders are the aggressors? That makes no sense. Unless you have another agenda?

Those guilty are Hamas and Netanyahu and not the innocent Palestinians and Israeli.

There isn’t going to be a good outcome for either though there needs to be a ceasefire now.

Have friends living in Tel Aviv so am aware of what is happening there

Thisworld10 · 25/10/2023 16:54

As the UN chief said the horrendous attack on Israel cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people.

So many of you keep bringing up history - but it’s the innocent people dying today. Again, Hamas are not the people and the people are not Hamas.

In very very simplified and basic terms if someone in say New York committed a hate crime. You wouldn’t arrest the whole of New York and lock them up just because there might be other people in the city ready to commit the same hate crime. This is a very simple and basic explanation. The same way Hamas did this the people of Palestine shouldn’t be held responsible.

@RaquelSurprise the 2 hostages released the other day, Israel refused to take them at first. Hamas has also said they’ll release 50 more hostages but Israel has refused.

In the last few weeks alone in the West Bank Israel has imprisoned thousands more Palestinians, as well as killing two of them. They hold people for decades without charge - they too are hostages.

I don’t get it - the only argument Israel has is that it’s trying to find Hamas. Hamas is clearly in the tunnels, they aren’t in the incubators with the premature babies. They aren’t hiding in the bread aisle of the bakery, it’s been said some of them aren’t even in Gaza. So go look in the tunnels and where else they might be. It’s inexcusable to bomb and displace so many people. Plus, with so much defence and military equipment and expertise they could find a more humane way to find them. No one is buying this narrative.

As I write this they have fiercely been bombing Gaza, killing and injuring even more innocents. Over 2,700 children are dead! Despicable. The number of dead will be even higher tomorrow.

Gaza doesn’t have an iron dome that can protect it, they don’t have the ability to be evacuated to other countries, even the international Palestinians who were visiting Gaza are still stuck near the border. Why is no one evacuating them, they don’t even live there how can they be human shields. An American Palestinian boy lost his sister to the bombings.

OP posts:
Maireas · 25/10/2023 17:01

That's not quite right, is it?
Israel haven't refused 50 - they've pushed back and said they want them all freed, otherwise it's just going to be a series of demands per hostage, or group of hostages.

Gruntsandgroans · 25/10/2023 17:29

Similar realities? These images are just from bombings this afternoon and I picked ones which wouldn't need a sensitive image warning.

Be ashamed of yourselves
Be ashamed of yourselves
Be ashamed of yourselves
Alcemeg · 25/10/2023 18:30

Thanks for sharing that. How do you think we picture war? Like a nice little tea party with slices of angel cake?

Dinkydaisy1 · 25/10/2023 18:42

Alcemeg · 25/10/2023 18:30

Thanks for sharing that. How do you think we picture war? Like a nice little tea party with slices of angel cake?

If you look for live tags of Israel/Tel Aviv on social media, you will find parties, beach brunches, idf soldiers dancing to tiktoks, influencers mocking Palestinian deaths and makeup done using bomb shrapnel, oh and jokes about new real estate being developed...

Gruntsandgroans · 25/10/2023 18:42

Alcemeg · 25/10/2023 18:30

Thanks for sharing that. How do you think we picture war? Like a nice little tea party with slices of angel cake?

Dunno mate. You'd have to ask Raquel how she pictured it. She is the one said people in Israel are experiencing a similar reality those in Gaza. She doesn't seem to realise that whole apartment blocks are being bombed to shit on a Wednesday afternoon with mums and their children inside.

Thisworld10 · 25/10/2023 19:02

@Maireas they refused the 2 released the other day. It was said Hamas wanted to release them on humanitarian grounds.

I’m assuming you already know this - the 50 now are in exchange for what the Times says in this snapshot. I think hostage negotiation was to be expected as it goes on, 2 weeks ago they were asking for the release of all the wrongly imprisoned people held by Israel but now it’s this, that’s why Qatar are involved.

Be ashamed of yourselves
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Gruntsandgroans · 25/10/2023 19:04

An Al jazeera journalists wife, son and daughter were among those killed today They had fled south like Israel told them too and they were murdered anyway.

Thisworld10 · 25/10/2023 19:05

Sorry I meant telegraph not times.

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Thisworld10 · 25/10/2023 19:15

@Gruntsandgroans I saw him crying over his sons body. It’s so sad, his entire family gone.

The media bias is really apparent through this - I don’t see any media reporting the side of Gaza as it should do.

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Thisworld10 · 26/10/2023 00:02

What is wrong with the world.

I cannot believe Biden has just stood on his platform and attempted to distort reality by saying he has no confidence in the number the Palestinians are using! What do we only believe the mouthpiece of Ben N, the Israeli PM and his government. Who has given Biden the right to decide what is right or wrong, he’s just a president - who made him king of the world?

6,600 dead Biden, over 2,700 of those are children.
over 17,000 injured.

and this number is probably lower than the reality because the reality is so many more are stuck under the rubble and no one can get too them. They say the smell of death is everywhere in Gaza.

No one has questioned the 1,400 deaths on Israel’s side, we all believe it. I haven’t seen 1,400 funerals but I don’t question it. No one does we all believe it’s true. Yet, the gall to minimise the deaths of Palestinians.

we are watchingPalestinians die and the world’s reaction. We’ve seen the mass graves. We’ve seen the dead children..so many of them. We’ve seen images of bombs falling in real time and recordings - the constant air strikes. One journalist lost 30 members of her family!! And then days later her best friend. So many families have been wiped out entirely.

he has the audacity to say he doesn’t believe the number. Gaslighting 101.

Children are being treated without pain medicine, vinegar to clean wounds, cloth to cover burns because they’ve run out of wound dressing. Burns like doctors have never seen before. 1 child is dying every 15 minutes and yet he thinks the numbers are low and doesn’t want to call for a ceasefire.

The oppressor is oppressing the oppressed even more with full support of the USA, UK, France and others. People are being shadow banned on social media. Israeli influencers are creating tik tok videos mocking Palestinians, The Israel Government is openly saying Palestinians are human animals, dehumanising them. And this is all allowed without condemnation. Any pro-Palestinian interviewed has to first answer the question if they condemn Hamas as though they are on speed dial with them.

This world is shameful and Queen Rana is right there is a double standard and the world is silent on the deaths of the Palestinians.

Palestinian deaths are nothing more than a nuisance it seems.

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Gruntsandgroans · 26/10/2023 00:12

The US are in too deep. They've paid for this. They have sponsored the mass killing of Palestinians. They can't back down now.

SeeReality · 26/10/2023 00:30

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

SeeReality · 26/10/2023 00:34

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

ssd · 26/10/2023 01:19

Totally agree with you op