“I killed 10 Jews with my own hands. I’m using the dead Jewish woman’s phone to call you now.”

[mushti]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/israel-shows-footage-of-hamas-killings-to-counter-denial-of-atrocities

I feel sick.

At least you admit you are. That's a good start. Once people become aware of how clueless they are they can choose to learn instead of spreading propaganda narratives fed to them, if they want to.

Yes. To continue with the psychobabble as politics, we needed some kind of civilizational intervention some time ago.

I know this isn't aimed at me but I'm going to answer it. I think it's quite dangerous thinking to paint the other side as one dimensional monsters, we could never be like them or do what they do. The truth is, and history shows, most of us could. The Nazis had huge popular support in the 1930s/40s by perfectly ordinary people and perfectly ordinary people became Nazis. They probably made very nice neighbours, read to their children at night, would feed your cat for you while you were away etc. The same I'm sure with HAMAS members and I believe they have huge popular support in Palestine with ordinary people 'nice' people. They could be us, and more importantly, history shows us, we could be them. I think it's important to be aware of this rather than paint certain people as monsters or animals who do things we could never do because we are better. The only way we are better is when we actually do do better.

No, of course not. When did I even implying that?

Yes, Israel has some scary right-wingers and religious fanatics and those contemptible football Ultras. I listened to an interview with an Israeli left-winger the other day and he said one of the problems Israel faces is that of changing demographics, in that conservative and deeply religious families have far more children than progressive, liberal families. (It's also the case that Muslim families have more children, too.) But at least Israel has democracy and legal challenges and vocal opposition and critical journalists, and so forth. Look what happens to people who oppose Hamas or the Ayatollah.

One of the things I've been questioning is the BBC's use of Palestinian journalists who live in Gaza. I guess there's no other way to get stories out (which says a lot in itself), but how can the BBC guarantee impartiality if it employs journalists who may not be able to speak freely?

5,000 Palestinians killed and counting, horrific.

The 'Gaza Ministry of Health' speaks again.

Sorry to be lazy by reposting this here from another thread, but I have limited time today and really want to say this here too.

It’s war by social media.

The fashionable view seems to be that Palestinians are the underdog, crushed by the boot of Israel. I used to just accept this narrative without reflection, assuming that any country with US backing would naturally have an unfair advantage. But recent events have made me curious to find out more.

I never really considered that Hamas has an operational budget of over $300 million (see e.g. here), and for the past couple of decades could have chosen to spend this on improving the infrastructure, e.g. creating a “iron dome” missile defence system such as Israel has had had in place for several years to protect them against constant attack from Gaza. Instead, they have invested it all in building underground tunnels and setting up missile launchers and ammunition stores around kindergartens, hospitals, mosques etc.

Now, why would they do that? Obviously, to use their own people as human shields. For years!

Would this strategy have worked if they knew that Israel didn’t care about killing Gazan civilians?

You talk about ethnic cleansing? Hamas’s covenant sets out quite clearly their genocidal intentions towards Jews. And Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Hamas’s founding leader, warns that their ultimate goal is an Islamic state not just locally, but globally. “First they came for the Jews…” was never so apt.

Hamas now have everyone twisted round their little finger with their avalanche of images of dead babies. Of course, everyone is screaming at Israel to stop. Who can look at a dead or injured child without desperately wanting these horrors to end immediately?! Much easier to weep over gore porn than question why we are seeing it.

Israel, more reticent about the dignity of the dead and with respect for their families, have discreetly shared glimpses of their own horrors with global journalists. War-hardened reporters wept and retched and have tried their best to express the global urgency of dealing with this level of sadistic brutality.

And no wonder Israel felt the need to correct the dominant narrative. Hamas are winning the propaganda war. Even a regular poster on one of these threads summed up the 7 Oct atrocities as being “shot at close range by a rifle.” Yet it’s been over 2 weeks now! Plenty of time to find out more, if you actually cared. Probably not as sensational as the gruesome Hamas images, admittedly. But you might find the patience to just watch a pretty girl talking quietly for <10 minutes (or speed up the playback if that’s too long for you). There are plenty more on YouTube.

I don’t know how we get out of this shithole, but it’s certainly not by pointing the finger at Israel and ignoring the real monster in our midst.

*Quantumphysicality

Im frankly also really worried that it is apparently ok to refer to people as “animals” and “inhuman” as I have heard numerous times on the news in recent weeks. The “othering” of an enemy only leads to further atrocities*

Pity Palestine don’t think of that when they are teaching their children

While obviously innocent people, including children and babies, have suffered terrible deaths this month, why are we trusting the numbers Hamas are providing?

Hospitals in Gaza have only had enough fuel to power the hospitals for one day for two weeks now.

I'm not suggesting it's not an awful situation and that people aren't suffering in the most awful ways, I just want to know why people are so willing to believe everything Hamas tells them.

I wouldn't want to 'other' Palestinians but I'm not sure it is wrong to 'other' Hamas. People who like to use the word 'other' seem quite happy to do exactly that to certain British historical figures.

I'd say its essential to 'other' people who tie children up and burn them alive & then gloat about it. Otherwise we are lost.

Agree @SharonEllis

Hamas have shown us who they are, we need to believe them - and take seriously the possible consequences of them ever expanding their sphere of influence and power.

They do not support or want a two state solution - they want to wipe out Jews - they are explicit about that.

Well everyday’s a school day. I have learnt that we shouldn’t ‘other’ those nice chaps in Hamas (after all they did treat the hostages well. You know, the ones they kidnapped and abused) as that may lead to further atrocities.
I think Hamas have the future atrocities angle covered with or without the othering. And I do not trust any of the figures that they are giving regarding the death toll in Gaza.
Surely it’s obvious that Hamas are laughing at the way they are conning the gullible western ‘liberals’? They are indeed waging an effective social media war and all the while so called ‘liberal progressives’ are hand wringing, going on pro-Palestine marches and accusing Israel of being fascist etc., the states bordering Israel are circling like sharks, waiting to move in when they sense an opportune moment.
And, as a pp said, that will have implications for the West-make no mistake they will not have much time for the ‘liberal progressives’.

@ChalkWitch well said.

Actually. I think they do and I think there are whole sections of our society publically celebrating it (and even more privately celebrating it within their own communities). Sickening and disregard for the sanctity of life. People from both sides need to come out and stand up for the lives of all of the innocent affected by this. Far too much posturing and hidden agenda in my view.

The israeli response makes the liklihood of peace remote but my god the Hamas attack is dispicable and if you can't stand up and say that whether you are pro palestine or not you are a quiet or not so quiet supporter in my view.

@Alcemeg I think you are conflating Hamas with the civilians. What we are seeing is live coverage from BBC, C4 and other western news channels - I seriously doubt the images are being staged by Hamas, or that these channels are in any way a mouthpiece for them. We are seeing 3 year olds being dug out from rubble or bleeding, and if you look at aerial images of the destruction, it's obvious there will be many more people under there. You point out that Hamas has failed to provide for its people, but how us that the fault of children? Can you imagine what depriving 2 million people of water, food and medical care while bombing them might do? I expect the final death numbers will be much higher. You do know that humans can only survive 2-3 days without water? Drinking dirty water will introduce diseases such as cholera etc. It is very silly to think that these people will miraculously survive, and that our news channels are just staging the scenes to get sympathy for civilians. If you believe the ends justify the means, you can say so. But don't posit these bizarre scenarios, please.

I think you are conflating Hamas with the civilians
No, I'm not. You're misunderstanding me completely. I'm not suggesting that anything is "staged." Never mind.

Quite. 'Queers for Palestine' pop up at all the demos. How fucking stupid are these people?

@SharonEllis quite. When you’ve got the likes of Little Owen Jones all over the place calling for the Israeli’s to stop what they are doing, you do have to wonder if his two brain cells have computed the fact that if he went anywhere Gaza he’d highly likely be thrown off the nearest building by Hamas supporters for being gay.

Here's another nice detail from October 7. Remember, this was all recorded on bodycam by the terrorists, folks:

"'They filed a pregnant women, a terrorist arrives, he disembowels her, takes out the foetus, and in front of her, he comes out and massacres the baby before killing her,' Weisberg told a delegation of Jewish community leaders from France at the Shura military base."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12666289/Eyes-gouged-womans-breasts-cut-daughter-legs-severed-Horrific-details-Hamas-massacre-emerge-rescue-worker-recounts-entire-families-slaughtered.html

I think their needs to be a warning before posts like that regardless of their significance.

Unfortunately, there is a need for these type of posts describing the horrors of what was done in October 7th as there are so many people on these threads denying what happened.

Thank you for posting this and for your decision to investigate further into what is happening and educate yourself.

The worst part is over? They have released the hostages, Hamas is gone? They no longer want to destroy Israel and kill the Jews? They're not sending hundreds of rockets a day into Israel? Great news.