“I killed 10 Jews with my own hands. I’m using the dead Jewish woman’s phone to call you now.”

[mushti]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/israel-shows-footage-of-hamas-killings-to-counter-denial-of-atrocities

I feel sick.

Well that’s where we have to disagree! I think it’s impossible to look at any act of war/ terrorism/ brutality or whatever you want to call it without looking at the wider context. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Surely the only way to properly and objectively discuss anything is to discuss it within the historical, political etc context in which it happened? If you want to discuss the attacks without the wider context then obviously that is your right to do, but it means the discussion will be completely subjective and so that’s where I will bow out I think.

In general I would agree but in this case I've seen many many people use "context" to minimise the brutality of what took place.

I've described to you some of the events that took place, and as a human I can't picture any context that justifies those actions and the extremely personal, savage nature of them. You've clearly been deeply affected by the footage you have seen from Gaza yet as you've admitted yourself, you feel quite disengaged from what the Israeli victims endured. I've described some of the atrocities to you, if you're still unmoved that is your prerogative of course but excuse me if I don't find attempting to contextualise that level of sheer human degradation to be okay.

I entirely agree with you.

I do not know how anyone can read the posts you have written outlining the depraved degradation and not react with horror.

I find that very difficult on here so I can only imagine how those who are even closer to it would be feeling.

I'm quite at loss when people equate collateral damage with wilful brutal murder of people. Yes, babies die on both sides, but is it really the same when there is a missile strike and there are child victims (caused primarily by Hamas using civilians as human shield) and when people deliberately target children and kill them with unimaginable brutality simply because they are Jewish?

I hope that no harm comes to the hostages. I hope they are safe and will be released.

I agree. If they want to hop the fence and attack the IDF then go ahead. That's completely different to what they actually did.

TBH I don't see how it could ever be possible to have a "proportionate" response to what was done that day, it's not just about numbers. But that absolutely doesn't mean that I think constant bombing is a solution either. It's impossible to watch footage from Gaza without being incredibly distressed.

I'm in my late 60s, I've watched this for 50 years and it's worse than I ever remember. The whole thing is terrible.

I’m not unmoved by it and I do not believe it was justified. I don’t really understand why you keep thinking that I think they were justified, putting something into context is not the same as justifying it. I didn’t say I feel disengaged from what the Israelis endured, I said it feels less real because I haven’t seen any uncensored footage of it so it’s harder for me to visualise. I think because it is not as ongoing as the airstrikes it also feels less pressing to stand up against it. Perhaps it is also true that it feels easier to speak out against a Western country such as Israel and hope they start to show some humanity than it would be to speak out against a terrorist organisation and hope that they would do the same. Obviously I have no hope that Hamas are going to do anything to help the situation which is probably why my focus is on what Israel might be doing right now, at least there is some hope that Israel might agree to at least a temporary ceasefire or let more aid into Gaza.

Anyway, I do not believe anything Hamas did was okay and it is frustrating for you to keep saying I am ‘justifying’ it when I am not, putting something into a wider context is not the same as justifying it. You can look at the wider context of something and still think it was wrong. You even admit in your last post that I did not justify it, but then in the quoted one again accuse me of justifying Hamas.

I'm in my late 60s, I've watched this for 50 years and it's worse than I ever remember. The whole thing is terrible.

I'm in despair at this. It's just utter misery and suffering all round and for what? I totally understand Israel needing to act against Hamas, that Hamas are embedded within civilian infrastructure but I hate that it is happening.

@MolkosTeenageAngst honestly, I feel like I have to really, REALLY simplify it for you. If Hamas lays down arms, this conflict will be over. If Israel lays down arms, Israel cease to exist. This is as simple as that.

The constant posting is propaganda.

IDF reluctantly gave that footage to journalists as people as still being held hostage.... oh and two hundred are yet to be identified due to being burnt beyond recognition. They did that due to the backlash caused by the constant propaganda posted by Hamas and the gullibility of the west falling for it. They felt they had no choice.

It's shameful we put Israel in that position. Their attention should be elsewhere dealing with the immediate issues. Not placating the west.

I don't think that is true. Palestine was shrinking and civilians were being murdered before Hamas.

Killing is awful on both sides, but to paint Israel as a fair nation is ridiculous.

This. This. Emphatically this.

It won’t be over. Hamas do not exist in the West Bank and yet Palestinians are not free there. Israel occupy the West Bank and Israeli settlers drive Palestinians out of their homes. Palestine already hardly exists accept as two separated occupied territories. This is not the first conflict between Palestine and Israel and conflict happens in the West Bank as well, admittedly not to this scale.

I am also not saying Israel should put down their arms, I am not saying Israel should stop defending the border to ensure Hamas cannot enter Israel, but they could at least stop relentless airstrikes and the refusal to let enough aid into Gaza for the civilian population. If Hamas only have 30,000 soldiers and Israel has 500,000 then I don’t believe for a second they are going to wipe out Israel if Israel stop the current airstrikes.

Obviously Israel needs to keep its citizens safe, I don’t deny that and I understand the need for arms around the border to ensure Hamas do not enter again. I don’t understand the relentless indiscriminate airstrikes and I don’t believe that they are all necessary to keep Israel safe right now. I don’t see any evidence to suggest that a ceasefire and the provision of aid into Gaza would result in Hamas overthrowing Israel and Israel ceasing to exist, especially considering the worldwide support Israel has from allies such as the US.

That's the second poster in as many hours that I've seen claim that Hamas are not in the West Bank. And also by omission implying that Hamas are the only relevant terrorist group in either Gaza or the West Bank. Very interesting.

I always thought 'people of the book' meant Abrahamic religions. So Muslims, Christians and Jews?

Happy to be corrected

I'm sorry this is a Daily Mail link. I'm mixing my media sources a lot currently but this can't make it any clearer what Israel and western society is dealing with: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12666157/amp/Son-Hamas-founder-Israeli-spy-says-father-army-want-annihilate-Jewish-people-create-global-Islamic-state.html

Of course there are many steps that need to be completed before Hamas achieves its goals but they're very clear about what they want for Israel.

Hamas must be destroyed.

No it means Christians and Jews. As opposed to those unfortunate pagans.

You’re right I shouldn’t have said they don’t exist in the West Bank, I should have said they don’t govern.

I know a couple of people in real life who do that. They have empathy chips missing actually. But I suspect in most cases this is simply a politically motivated narrative. They're perfectly capable of distinguishing in normal life the difference made by intent and motive and indeed what's deliberately done to people before killing them.

I suspect the source of the propaganda is that the left generally takes the side of 'The Oppressed' and views terrorism as the unfortunate 'language of the unheard' - like riots, as Martin Luther King said. When you start from there, you find you have to draw an equivalence between actions taken by 'white supremacist settler colonial' States in response to those of the terrorist groups. That's why there's a constant effort to blur the definitions of terrorism vs war crimes. 'State terror' is one of the favourite phrases.

That's amazing. The other most recent example also switched once called out to saying that she meant only that 'they weren't based there'.

My concern about Palestine is that there doesn’t seem to be much of an anti-Hamas sentiment. They all seem to be brainwashed, especially the young men.

@MolkosTeenageAngst Hamas are actively preventing any peace talk and are behind the nutcase extremist ideology that states that the only way Palestine can be free is when the Israel is destroyed. If these people are taken out, there is a (small) chance there could be some sort of a sane negotiation between Palestine and Israel. At this moment, how can you negotiate with someone who wants you dead???

Why is that amazing?

It's hard to believe people actually suggest their 'side' is murdering children in a more moral way. Really? Blowing a kid's arms and legs off, then making them die in agony because you stopped the medicine and blew up the hospital - are you seriously suggesting this is better than anything Hamas did? No, killing children is wrong, when Hamas does it and when Israel does it too.

@ChickenNugget6 well its all down to the simple question - do you believe Israel has a right to exist? Because the end of Israel is what the main undercurrent of free Palestine movement is all about (and please spare me all the bullshit about the "true" meaning of "from river to the sea", I've heard it all already)
Israel agreed to ALL 2-state solutions offered. Palestine rejected ALL of them.

@ketchup07070 is there a difference when someone kills a person when driving under the influence or when someone catches the person, tortures them and kills them slowly? I'm not making any connections but I'm just interested. Killing is wrong, of course, but deliberately sadistic killing?..