“I killed 10 Jews with my own hands. I’m using the dead Jewish woman’s phone to call you now.”

[mushti]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/israel-shows-footage-of-hamas-killings-to-counter-denial-of-atrocities

I feel sick.

Common sense is being sceptical of information provided by murderous terrorists about numbers killed/hurt and the context in which they occurred.

For example are the ‘500’ they accidentally killed with their own rocket included in that 4000?

Do you genuinely believe the IDF are randomly dropping bombs rather than trying to engage military targets?

Civilians are no doubt tragically getting caught up in this war started by Hamas, but that happens in war, especially when used as cover and for PR purposes.

I think the showing of footage to journalists was a good idea. I'm not going to search for the hamas Facebook to watch the live feeds. Presumably this were pulled later when platforms realised? But I would read the descriptions and have done so.

I actually feel like these actions have damaged the Palestinian cause which I am sympathetic to. The constant Israeli adverts about the action they were taking and the confusion/misinformation/propoganda (like the fake audio records) about strikes had been distracting from the actual events on 7th October. Showing the footage to journalists and having stories detailed about individual families has refocused some of that attention.

There's was also a pretty amazing interview with a 96 year old peace activist who was released. She was able to give a detailed amount of being captured and then held. Sharing stories like this also helps make it seem more human.

The Green Prince, son of Hamas leader who wrote the book and evidences shows Hamas purposely uses civilians as shields/to hide behind. As one strategist pointed out, did Hamas create a university in Gaza for Palestinians? Yes, did they also use it to build weapons in the sub basement? Also yes, so is the university a legitimate military target even though innocents are there? Also if the innocents know what is going on in the sub basement, are they guilty by association? It gets very complex very fast but NOTHING can justify what happened in Israel.

Climate change can't bin this planet off soon enough.

Why is it? Have they only killed Hamas (the perpetrators)?

It's harrowing to think this is a justified response to a terrorist act.

I'm not going to split hairs on reported numbers - there are clearly many many innocent Palestinians suffering. I have a Palestinian friend who is suffering immeasurably watching it all play out. (Before anyone says there are Jewish people suffering, yes I know they are - but nobody is challenging how awful the hamas attack it).

Showing the horrific footage to journalists was absolutely necessary. In the same vein Eisenhower knew that people would try to minimise the Holocaust so called in members of Congress and journalists to visit the newly liberated Concentration Camps.

https://newspapers.ushmm.org/events/eisenhower-asks-congress-and-press-to-witness-nazi-horrors

On the day of the attack I saw a brief two second clip of the video where the man is being decapitated by the garden hoe. The brief clip did not show the man but the Hamas attacker who was enjoying himself. A journalist who has now seen the video said that the victim looked South East Asian and was probably a farm worker. I cannot comprehend how someone can do something so specifically awful to another person and be proud of it; actually post the footage on line because they want everyone to know what they have done and how badly the poor man suffered.

The other video that is burned into my memory is of the two parents and their two children being held at gunpoint, the children in utter despair over their older sister's death. It now transpires that she had been shot in the head and was lying dead just off camera. I can't imagine what sort of man would put children through such a thing and then broadcast their trauma on Facebook Live, using their own mother's phone.

It's the lack of shame which is so disturbing. It's one thing to live somewhere where torturing people to death will bring you opprobrium, arrest, trial and punishment; and another where your own government (and your own parents, seemingly) will laud you and reward you for doing the same.

But you know, Hamas were actually right. They filmed themselves committing medieval atrocities and it didn't turn people off them. It's actually gained them support around the world, boosted the morale of their fans. People in western countries are revelling in this. I guess Hamas now know that if they do execute hostages it's not necessarily going to go down that badly in some quarters.

Israel, on the other hand, is always expected to bring boxing gloves to a knife fight. Hamas, ISIS, the Wagner Group, they can do what they like, while the governments of totalitarian regimes hold western governments to the standards they themselves never intend to keep. Israel knows that every military move it makes is going to be scrutinised to the nth degree. Hamas has just proved it doesn't have that problem.

What an amazing woman. Hopefully the other hostages will be released very soon.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67204479

I haven’t forgotten the Israeli attacks, but truthfully they have been completely eclipsed by the Israeli retaliation. Over four times more Palestinians have now been killed than the Israelis murdered by Hamas in revenge. Hamas killing innocent people was heinous and unforgivable, but the actual attack and killing is over. Israel are currently killing innocent people in Gaza, there are over 1 million people displaced in Gaza, the people are currently without enough food or water, hospitals are about to run out of electricity which will lead to the deaths of even more critically ill people reliant on mechanical interventions, including over 100 premature babies in incubators.

The worst part of the attack on Israel is over, at least physically, the attack on Gaza is ongoing. Obviously the worlds focus is going to be on the current attacks and the fact that if nothing is done more babies and children will be killed this evening, tonight, tomorrow, over the weekend. To me it doesn’t matter if the baby killed is Israeli or Palestinian, if they are killed in a terrorise attack or in a bombing, either way that is an innocent child who has lost their life for nothing. The loss of each Palestinian life is no better or worse than the loss of each Israeli life, the difference is that the loss of Palestinian life is happening right now and will continue unless the world speaks out. It is too late to save the Israeli children who died, it is too late to save the Palestinian children who have died, but it is not too late to speak out and condemn Israel for the babies and children they plan to kill over the next 24 hours. There needs to be a ceasefire because the current revenge attacks are not going to bring the dead back, they are not going to stop Hamas, they are not going to end the conflict, all they are doing is killing more and more innocent people.

I've read a lot about resistance movements in occupied Europe during WW2 - Poland, France, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands - they were all pretty ruthless and all facing the direst existential threat but I cannot recall a single instance of any of them raiding Germany and torturing children to death. Not only would that have been barbaric but there would have been no strategic logic to it whatsoever. It says something about how oppressed you are when your oppressor is so slack you have to commit a mass casualty atrocity in order to goad them into attacking you.

@MolkosTeenageAngst how is the 'worst part over' when they have 200+ hostages and actually for me.... it's not 'eclipsed' and is more evidence of selective memory and washing something that happened two weeks ago!

Horrific

I haven’t watched videos but just picking stuff up on here is barbaric enough

@JamSandle I hope not. I still feel surrounded by goodness (my dc, people I love etc)

The attack against Israel isn't over. Hamas are still firing rockets into Israel, as are Hezbollah. This is the point: Israel already lives with constant rocket attacks and smaller-scale terrorist attacks. Hamas have let it be known that ISIS-style attacks are now going to be the new normal. If Israel does nothing Hamas commits more atrocities, Hezbollah joins in, then every jihadi in the Middle East and beyond attacks Israel. The idea that there will be peace if Israel does nothing is naive.

Utterly horrific.

Nothing could ever justify ethnic cleansing and this doesn't but it is still utterly horrific.

True, it must be scary for the families of the hostages, but the testimonies of the hostages that have been released confirm they were being well looked after and Hamas have started to release them.

Its scary, but not as scary as life must be for Palestinians right now knowing that they have lost their homes, knowing that food and water is running out, knowing that they may be bombed in their beds or in the refugee camps or even in a hospital tonight. It must be terrifying continuing to watch buildings fall down around you, to watch dead and injured people be pulled out of the rubble, and to know there is no safe place in Gaza right now. The majority of the Israeli population (at least those who weren’t directly effected by the attack or didn’t lose family members) are continuing to live their lives as normal now, obviously with the awful memories. No single person in Gaza is able to live their life as normal, nobody has enough to eat, enough water, nobody is safe from the risk of being bombed. How can the wold be expected to mourn for Israel when every 15 minutes a child is killed in Gaza?

My feeling is that the killing of innocent children needs to stop before anybody can truly mourn the needless dead civilians who have now been killed on both sides. I don’t think the loss of Palestinians is worse than the loss or Israelis, but more lives have been lost and more will continued to be lost over the comings hours, days, maybe weeks or months. That is what I mean by it being eclipsed, any time my mind might go to the brutality of the attack carried out by Hamas and start to feel pain for those people killed I read another news article or see another post on social media about a child killed in the last few hours and of course that is eclipsing any time to dwell on what happened 2 weeks ago, it shouldn’t be that the loss of 1500 people 2 weeks ago has been eclipsed by an even larger loss of life, but with over 5000 Palestinians killed since October 7th unfortunately that is what has happened.

@Yorkshirelass04 and @MolkosTeenageAngst
You're both playing the numbers game here, the "what about."

Hamas are engineering the higher numbers of Palestinian victims, e.g. by where they choose to site their missile launchers and ammunition. They don't give a fuck about the Gazans, they never have. It helps them a great deal when you say "ah yes but 1400 vs 5000, you can't argue with that."

To say that the 7 Oct atrocities are already "completely eclipsed by the Israeli retaliation" is failing to recognise the difference between war, where awful things happen as an unintended but inevitable consequence, and unspeakable war crimes. The deliberate sadism and brutality of the 7 Oct attacks have made it very clear who the real threat is - not just to Israel but to humanity in general, including Gazans whose lives they continue to destroy.

Well looked after? They were kidnapped at gunpoint. The 85 woman who was released today said she was repeatedly hit with sticks. We have no idea what's happening to all the other hostages or if they're even still alive. Your the second poster downplaying a terrorist organisation taking people from their homes.

@MolkosTeenageAngst

Its scary, but not as scary as life must be for Palestinians right now

So let me get this right. Families of the hostages - families related to the children who have been taken at gun point, who watched family members murdered in front of them, who were snatched by balaclava wearing men with machine guns. Who are being held in tunnels under Gaza. That's not 'as scary'. God forbid you are ever in that situation.

You can have every compassion for innocent victims living in fear in Gaza but to make comparisons like this is abhorrent. It shouldn't be a race to the bottom

I'd love to watch you face to face with the family of a snatched toddler and tell them their life right now isn't 'as scary' as Gazan citizens.

I despair

@MolkosTeenageAngst also they have to say that really don't they.... the hostages i mean.... for a start Hamas still have their husbands hostage who I would have thought are unlikely to be spring chickens. Why not release them too?

More Hamas propaganda.

The majority of the Israeli population (I live in Israel) are NOT living life as normal. I know not one person who is. Rocket fire continues all over the country, my 13 year old hid in a stairwell in a shop building on Sunday because a siren went off while he was on his way home from school. I couldn’t get hold of him and had no idea if he was safe, while I hid at home. I have practiced how to lie down in the street with your hands on your head with my barely 4 year old in case a siren goes off while we are walking home from nursery. Thousands and thousands of very traumatised refugees have filled my city and around half a million Israelis are displaced.
and if you think the same Hamas who committed the atrocities on Oct 7th, are treating the hostages well, then I have no words.

I fully agree that Hamas don’t give a shit about Palestinian citizens. It doesn’t mean that the rest of the world should shrug their shoulders and refuse to care about them either.

However, you can hardly call the current situation a war. Gaza does not have a military. It has no fuel, no water, no food. Hamas don’t have access to the weapons that Israel has (and nor am I suggesting that they should!). Furthermore, Israel is committing a number of war crimes; bombing UN buildings, refugee camps, telling citizens to flee South and then bombing the South, carpet bombing, use of phosphorous etc. The war crimes committed by Hamas don’t cancel out the war crimes Israel is committing right now: read this article by the UNHRSR https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/issues/ijudiciary/statements/statement-sr-ijl-2023-10-19.pdf

Since the attack, Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant called for a “complete siege” of Gaza and referred to Hamas militants as “human animals”. The IDF is reportedly preparing for a ground invasion. Israel has launched a barrage of deadly airstrikes into densely populated civilian areas, destroying or damaging homes, hospitals, markets, and UN Reliefs and Works Agency buildings. As of 18 October, the Ministry of Health in Gaza recorded 3,478 Palestinians killed, including 853 children and 936 women, and more than 12,065 Palestinians injured. Reports indicate that the vast majority of the deaths can be attributed to Israeli airstrikes. Israel also increased its blockade on Gaza, cutting off food, water, electricity, and fuel supplies. Such actions have had foreseeable and dire consequences: hospitals are unable to adequately care for those wounded in the airstrikes or ill with medical conditions. Food, water, and electricity are increasingly hard to find. The Internet is likely to go dark. Israel’s actions amount to collective punishment, which is plainly prohibited by international humanitarian law. The intentional starvation of a civilian population is a war crime and may amount to a crime against humanity. The indiscriminate killing of civilians without regard to the principles of distinction, unnecessary suffering, precaution, and proportionality is a war crime.

Near midnight on 12 October, Israel called for all Palestinians north of Wadi Gaza to evacuate, including those in hospitals or sheltering in UN buildings. Such an evacuation, of more than 1.1 million people, within a very short period, was clearly impossible and caused panic among a civilian population already experiencing the loss of family members, injuries caused by bombing, extreme hunger, and lack of medical care. Medical personnel have said that an evacuation of hospitals is impossible, and the World Health Organization called the Israeli evacuation directive a “death sentence for the sick and injured”. The forced expulsion of a civilian population may amount to crimes against humanity or war crimes.

I don’t wish to ignore the war crimes committed by Hamas, but two wrongs do not make a right and Israel is now committing war crimes in retaliation whilst the rest of the world stands by. It’s very unlikely that Israel will be able to wipe out Hamas/ terrorism with bombs whilst it continue to occupy Gaza and the West Bank and almost 50% of the population in Gaza are children, so what exactly is Israel’s endgame here? How many more babies and children have to die before there is a ceasefire?

Gaza does not have a military.

Hamas has 30,000 soldiers in Gaza.

You’re right, I admit I probably wasn’t thinking so much of the family members who have had children taking hostage - as the released hostages were adults I suppose in my mind I was thinking of having an adult family member taken hostage, which is no doubt terrifying but probably less so than knowing your child could be killed at any moment. I don’t deny I was wrong to suggest that for the families of the children who have been taken hostage life is probably equally scary as it is for the Palestinian parents who know their child may be killed by a bomb at any moment.

It’s a hard read. I despair too

You put into words what I was thinking.
Whatever you say there are those who say "whatabout".
"Whatabout" is essentially a way of defending Hamas and denying the horror of their actions.