“I killed 10 Jews with my own hands. I’m using the dead Jewish woman’s phone to call you now.”

[mushti]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/israel-shows-footage-of-hamas-killings-to-counter-denial-of-atrocities

I feel sick.

I’ve seen what happened on 7 October being described as an “isolated terrorist attack.”

I wonder what all those suicide bombings in the 1990s were then? A lot of people have forgotten those even though they're happy to go back to 1948 when it suits them. Not to mention all the "isolated incidents" since the 90s.

As to the terrorist bragging to his mum, when terrorists murdered the Fogal family in 2011, including their 5 month old baby, their families said they were proud of what they've done. And how many videos have we've seen of people celebrating in the street after terror attacks.

30,000 guerilla soldiers. That’s not exactly a military though. It has no airforce, no navy, no military vehicles, no warplanes. Including reserves Israel has over 500,000 in the military plus a defence budget of $20 billion. I don’t think it’s really comparable.

All of this. I don't live in Israel but many of my friends and colleagues do. This is what is happening now.

Who went in and raped and murdered then? Either they have a military or that's ordinary Gazan's either way quite worrying.

And remember it did have all those things water, fuel, medical supplies etc and ask yourself why it does not now? It also had an infrastructure when Israel withdrew which was destroyed by Hamas.

The figures of all deaths in Gaza come from Hamas as you have shown and are all proved to be inflated however unconscionable Why would they do that? Like the bombing of the hospital.... not big bad Israel after all?

@MolkosTeenageAngst would you like Israel to provide that too?

Provide what, sorry?

All deaths in this sorry mess are down to Hamas.

The concerted effort by some to portray Israel’s sole intention to ‘kill babies and children’ is very reminiscent to the blood libel often aimed at Jews by anti-semites.

*but nobody is challenging how awful the hamas attack it).

Yes they are. The denial on social media is shocking and some cases of possible friendly fire ( which happens in every conflict) have been turned into " the IDF killed them all". A tiny sample below.

@StarbucksSmarterSister I hadn't read about the fogel family. When I think about 'isolated incidents' I think about the British rabbi who lost his wife and two daughters to a shooter on the way to a Passover meal.

The sad thing is he still said recently he still felt safer in Israel than in Britain.

I haven't looked at and videos or read any articles, I'm not going to, it's too horrific, it's ISIS all over again.

The one thing I've come to disagree with though, is 'never forget'. This just carries hate down through the generations, on and on sometimes for hundreds of years, each side killing the other side in turn.

I just KNEW people would jump on that poor woman saying she was “well looked after” as evidence to support Hamas. Did it not cross your mind that she was told to say that?? They still have her husband, it’s highly likely she was threatened at gun point to say that to preserve his life.

Let’s be crystal clear - hostage takers totally fail to “look after” their victims when they snatch them from their homes against their will. That this is being justified is beyond me. Just like most of the other crap I see on here.

Someone tell me how people are failing to see that Hamas are the problem here? The Palestinian people live under a terrorist dictatorship. That is the true problem.

That is terribly sad that he feels that. I remember when the Fogal case happened and it shocked me to the core. The full details are unbearably harrowing.

The one thing I've come to disagree with though, is 'never forget'. This just carries hate down through the generations, on and on sometimes for hundreds of years, each side killing the other side in turn.

Yes, but you'd think people could have given it 5 minutes or so before the "whataboutery."

@McPancreas

All deaths in this sorry mess are down to Hamas.

This is it. This says everything.

but nobody is challenging how awful the hamas attack it

You would think, but I’ve seen many deleted posts doing just that.

I’m late to posting on this issue, however, I did respond to one particularly vile comment saying that the Israeli’s who were raped, tortured and slaughtered brought it upon themselves and that the only innocent children and babies in this conflict are Palestinian ones.

I am becoming increasingly concerned about the discourse surrounding this issue.

@MolkosTeenageAngst

You’re right, I admit I probably wasn’t thinking so much of the family members who have had children taking hostage - as the released hostages were adults I suppose in my mind I was thinking of having an adult family member taken hostage, which is no doubt terrifying but probably less so than knowing your child could be killed at any moment. I don’t deny I was wrong to suggest that for the families of the children who have been taken hostage life is probably equally scary as it is for the Palestinian parents who know their child may be killed by a bomb at any moment.

Good for you for at least admitting that statement was wrong. But it's not just the children. If your mum, your brother, your cousin was being held hostage tonight, under Gaza. Held by terrorists who had raped and slaughtered and wreaked the most unspeakable violence. Who had videoed that horror and shared it on social media. Acts so horrific that journalist shown footage yesterday wept and vomited afterwards.

If that was your family can you honestly tell me that wouldn't be "as scary" as anything else?

I went to the solidarity rally to support the freeing of hostages on Sunday. To hear the testimony of the relatives was unbearable.

What about the Palestinians in the West Bank who do not live under Hamas? Whose homes are illegally stolen by Israeli settlers, who are killed by Israeli settlers? The sad reality is that life is awful for Palestinians even when they do not live under Hamas. Part of the reason Hamas has been able to flourish is due to the occupation of the Palestinian Territories by Israel. Obviously that does not make anything Hamas have done okay, but if you are going to argue that Hamas are the sole problem then you could just as easily argue that Israel are the problem for creating an apartheid system where Palestinians are second class citizens and have no security and where a terror organisation like Hamas were able to rise up.

It’s not as simple as to say the only problem is Hamas or life for Palestinians would surely look starkly different to life for Palestinians in Gaza, their land and homes would be safe and free from Israeli settlements, they would be able to move around freely and would not be under apartheid. If the only problem is Hamas then why is life for Palestinians unstable in the West Bank where Hamas do not rule?

Acts so horrific that journalist shown footage yesterday wept and vomited afterwards.

If that was your family can you honestly tell me that wouldn't be "as scary" as anything else?

@MolkosTeenageAngst surely you can understand how barbaric the atrocities by Hamas were, and are?

So many posts along your lines. It’s concerning

Plenty of historical grievances have been resolved despite people well remembering what happened. The Greek Christians expelled from Turkey in 1923, for example - their descendants remember exactly what was done to them in Turkey - but they're in Greece now, and safe. So they're not out trying to kill Turks in revenge, although no doubt they don't harbour warm and cuddly feelings towards them. You don't have to end hatred to end conflicts, which is just as well since you never will.

I don’t know. Personally I think living in a refugee camp in a war zone and witnessing countless dead bodies, knowing nowhere was safe from being bombed, knowing that my country was without food, water or electricity, without medical supplies and knowing that even if there was a ceasefire my home and workplace were gone and there was nowhere to go would be more scary than having a family member held hostage. I suppose I think at least if a family member is being held hostage there would be hope, hope that they would be returned and that at some point in the future there would be a chance of living a semi-normal life again. I don’t think there is even any hope for Palestinians to look towards even if they and their families survive the bombs. I think the absence of hope is what would make a situation the most terrifying for me, but I accept that other people may feel differently and also accept that in hindsight it probably isn’t reasonable to try and compare suffering and that both situations must feel unbearable.

Yes, of course I understand they were barbaric and I apologise if I have made it sound like I think they are anything but. However, I also think the ongoing retaliation of Israel against the people of Gaza is equally barbaric. I think war crimes have been committed on both sides and I don’t think the killing of innocents is any less barbaric when you do it from the comfort of a military base by dropping a bomb on a refugee camp compared to shooting a civilian at close range with a sniper rifle. I think knowingly killing civilians is unforgivable using any means and personally I don’t think the acts of Hamas justify the current situation in Gaza and the majority of the current military actions of Israel.

You do recognise the atrocities committed as they took hostages?

Have you encountered the details of October 7th?

You cannot think anything other than horror at that and what could be happening

It is indeed truly appalling as is the hostage taking. And now Israel is going about creating the next generation of people who feel enough hate to commit that kind of atrocity, as a human being and especially as Jew it breaks my heart. They are destroying any hope for the Palestinians and for Israelis. Which is exactly what Hamas wanted and knew they would get from Netanyahu.

Israel should have gone in with a surgical strike on Hamas, not this wholesale destruction and with an outright stated strategy to beseige innocent people, which immediately and understandably set everyone against Israel (and by extension against Jews everywhere) because Hamas and their paymasters only care about the Palestinian people as a tool to use against Israel, they don't care how many die, in fact it suits them.

I am glad, at least, that in presenting this footage the IDF spokespeople were clear that this violence was not representative of Islam and this is an act of terrorism, not a 'religious war'.

I don’t think the killing of innocents is any less barbaric when you do it from the comfort of a military base by dropping a bomb on a refugee camp compared to shooting a civilian at close range with a sniper rifle.

Have you actually read what was done? They weren't just shot with a rifle. Frankly if I or one of my family members had to die I've rather they were killed in a bombing raid than suffer what was done to many on 7 Oct.

I agree too.