For people who say I stand with Israel

[sprinklesprinkle]

What does that mean to you? Especially for Jewish people who are happy to answer.

I know what Free Palestine means - it has always meant freedom for Palestinians, peace, basic human rights such as water, the right to life essentially.

I Stand with Israel - what exactly does this mean?

I am genuinely not being 'goady" to use a MN word but I want to learn & understand. I know many will say not to have Israelis attacked at a festival or for the hostages to be released but what is the long term goal for those that support what the Israeli government is doing. What do you want for Palestinians?

Thank you to those that have explained without being insulting.

It's not faux naiveté. Of course I've been aware of the situation but not immersed in it. I wanted to start to learn and read up when I started hearing the word apartheid used more. I'm a South African in my early 50's and not a white S African so I know all about apartheid. I got into a heated discussion with a friend (who's not S Africa) when I referred to Hamas as a terrorist group. She argued back that Mandela was also called a terrorist and if he didn't do what he did where would I or family be today? I tried explaining that it's not the same but she didn't want to listen. It's highly complex situation, that is not easily explained and people from both sides are suffering.

I neither condemn nor condone what the Israeli government is doing.

Because I don't know what a state should do in such a situation.

What does a 'proportionate' response look like? Should the IDF go in and murder babies? Should it go and mass rape Palestinian women? Should it go and tie up children and then burn them to death? Would that satisfy those calling for a 'proportionate' response? Should it torture 80% of those it kills? You go and listen to the testimony of the ZAKA volunteers retrieving the bodies of the murdered Jewish children, women and men, to understand the deliberate torturous brutality of Hamas.

Hamas in this attack have made it clear that they do not want a peaceful solution with Israel. That is the message they have very deliberately chosen to send. Their goal was to destroy the peace process forever.

So how do you 'proportionally' respond to an enemy whose only goal is your total destruction? What would satisfy those calling for 'proportionality'?

And why are those accusing Israel of war crimes, not condemning Hamas for war crimes in their recent ttacks?. Why are those accusing Israel of disproportionality not accusing Hamas and their attacks of being disproportionate in these attacks? We all know that the disgusting answer to that is because they think the torture, rape and murder of Jewish men, women and children was proportionate. And there is no word for that other than deep anti-semitism.

Because the fact is there is no response Israel could give that would satisfy the Free Palestine Protestors and their supporters. Because their response to this massacre shows that nothing Hamas does will be condemned. And everything Israel does, will be.

You'd have thought the massacre would have caused them to go ' Ah! Now I understand why Israel needed the blockades and road checks!' But no. Instead the utter numpties are still banging on about the injustice of the blockades. Nothing, nothing will make these people open their eyes.

I will not engage in a discussion with someone who believes that water and food have not been stopped by the Israeli government. This is despicable.
I will never stand by an Israeli government who flaunts international laws and has done for years as well as treating Palestinians as sub human. This has an echo of the past. Equally, I will never stand by Hamas or any terrorist organisations. I stand for humanity and empathy. Both my parents grew up under Nazi occupation; one of my grandfathers and a great uncle were sent to a labour camp. They survived. Their legacy was to teach me how precious life is.

@Auvergne63 but this isn't about YOU

You are not.

That sums up how I see it too.

I don't.

Neither do I support the rape and murder of women, the burning alive of women and children, the beheading of children, the elderly being shot or having their throats slit, young people being shot.

https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1715848616059756720?t=5-NLoWiCJSi4I8Wis70jhg&s=19

Free Palestine unfortunately often means liberate the whole region, ie no more Israel, so people stand with Israel's continuous existence as a country and Jewish homeland.

I do know that many people supporting the Gazan civilians right now don't wish to see Israel's destruction, as a disclaimer to the above

Er..I don’t know where you got that idea from. I don’t think many people (outside of Hamas and their ilk) want this. Most people support the two state solution.

I didn't see that post as saying anything about what the Israeli government are or are not doing, but rather making the point that Hamas are focused on military/ terrorist action rather than on humanitarian work for their own people. Which is what Hamas do. They've deliberately brought down slaughter on their own people, for their own ends.

Of course it isn't. My views/opinions have been formed/ influenced by my life experience like everybody else as well as seeking knowledge.

Yeah, yeah that poster was.

I know what Free Palestine means - it has always meant freedom for Palestinians, peace, basic human rights such as water, the right to life essentially.

No... that is not what it means

Palestine was offered its own state many, many times. Every single time, they refused. The only resolution they would settle for was a complete destruction of Israel and one single Palestinian state.

Jew here.

I stand with Israel means that I believe that the Jewish people deserve a homeland and we should be able to defend it. It is historically ours.

Certainly not, nor do I

For everyone saying that Palestine has a right to a state and Israel is callously denying them this, please watch this:

U

The fact that you can't even spell Israel, plus the fact that you clearly haven't read the news that it was an Islamic Jihad rocket and not the IDF, doesn't give me much faith in any opinion you have on this topic.

Eh they didn't. It was a misfired jihad rocket

Not been proven either way yet.

Hmm yes I think you’re right that proportionality is perhaps not the right concept - it’s is perhaps suggestive of an eye for an eye which is inappropriate here.

I was thinking more along the lines of the principles which govern self-defence; the right to use such reasonable force as is strictly necessary in order to prevent harm to yourself or others, and no more. It is this which is hard to square against the killing of thousands, and in future hundreds of thousands, of innocent citizens.

I haven’t seen on here (MN) anything other than horror and disgust for the actions of Hamas and obviously I’m sorry if that has happened. Hamas are absolutely horrifically evil terrorists and there is no possible justification their abhorrent actions. There is absolutely no question of proportionality - it is just wrong on every possible scale. My support is fully with those who have suffered at their hands and those who are suffering from the concurrent rise in anti-semitism.

But it may also be that the Israeli government is engaged in the use of unreasonable force (using that measure above), war crimes etc which will cause horrific suffering. It is helpful to understand people’s position on this. Thank you for setting yours out so clearly.

Not Jewish but agree Israel should exist and can defend from terror attacks

Less sure on Free Palestine

If Israel withdraws completely is that free?

For how many people is free meaning no Israel? Some, majority or few

I am Jewish but I support Israel's right to defend itself as a sovereign state (has been so for over 70 years), rather than because it is considered the Jewish state. I disagree with what the current government is doing, it isn't just inhumane but also lacks foresight. You cannot continue the current policy of violent co-existence, your allies may not dare to tell you this, but you are running out of time because the age of American dominance is over and a multipolar world order means more conflict, so at some point unless you want to sacrifice future generations of Israelis, you need to find a solution that works for both parties). You cannot continue using your military strength on civilians and creating new generations of terrorists who would go onto hurt your own civilians. It is a perverse cycle of violence. It is not that you shouldn't defend yourself, but if you think that military force is always the solution, you would be doomed to conflict (and if the west is no longer strong, that is a recipe for disaster).

I sympathize with the Palestinian civilian population.

If Israel completely withdrew, sure!

But that would have to include giving up control over Palestinians` international borders, not "withdrawing" the way it did from Gaza.

Full national sovereignty, basically!

You can't equate all of the Palestinian people with Hamas

Why are western people so desperate to centre themselves in war crimes happening
elsewhere ? So narcissistic

unless they are also relentlessly being bombed and have no access to water or electricity there’s no comparison at all ,

I don't think it matters in the end what proportion of Palestinians want the Israeli state dissolved. Even if it were a minority, the majority would be irrelevant in the face of a far more motivated, well armed, funded, trained minority with support from every surrounding state. If Israel stood down its army tomorrow that would be the end of it as everyone knows.