For people who say I stand with Israel

[sprinklesprinkle]

What does that mean to you? Especially for Jewish people who are happy to answer.

I know what Free Palestine means - it has always meant freedom for Palestinians, peace, basic human rights such as water, the right to life essentially.

I Stand with Israel - what exactly does this mean?

I am genuinely not being 'goady" to use a MN word but I want to learn & understand. I know many will say not to have Israelis attacked at a festival or for the hostages to be released but what is the long term goal for those that support what the Israeli government is doing. What do you want for Palestinians?

I stand with Israel
What I want for Palestinians -
The deposition of Hamas
The creation of a separate state of Palestine comprising of the West Bank and Gaza. No Jerusalem, just logistically.
For that state to have a democratically
elected government who want to live in peace with their neighbours.
For Palestine to become a self governing self sufficient country in as much as they the infrastructure and systems to produce or import the food/water/medicines etc they need without relying on Israel to do it for them.
For full Palestinian citizenship and equal rights to be granted to Jews currently living in settlements in the West Bank. From the creation of the state of course Palestine will be free to create more Jewish settlements or not, as it sees fit.
For full and equal rights to be granted to all those living in Israel whether they be Jews/Christians/Muslims.

Then if you are in Gaza you should blame Hamas who broke a ceasefire to start a war with Israel by brutally torturing, raping and murdering 1400 people. Put the blame for this situation where it lies, with Hamas. Who even now are continuing to fire rockets into Israel. No food or water apparently, but plenty of rockets. Hamas are responsible for this.

I interpret as standing with the people of Israel

This is the only long term solution. Split the country down the middle right through Jerusalem as both sides want that. Each person/ family to choose which side they want to live on but one side be called Israel and be ruled by Israelis and the other half be called Palestine and be ruled by Palestinian's. The thing is it's hard to see anyone in their right minds wanting to be ruled by Hamas.

Yet Hamas was elected into power in 2006. Oh dear.

Its the two state solution, where both people's get their own nation. Hamas have repeatedly refused to accept the two state solutions which have been offered. Instead they want to total destruction of Israel.
Jews and Palestinians deserve to have a state of their own. Until Hamas accept this there will continue to be conflict.
People who say ' I stand with Israel' suspect support the two state solution and this racist mass murder and rape of the type recently carried out by Hamas is never justifiable.

I see the barbarous racist mass murder (including mass rape and the murder of babies) carried out by Hamas in this context of their refusal to accept Israel as having right to exist and their desire to total destruction of Israel and Israelis.

I also suspect they targeted the peaceful, liberal Israelis in the Kibbutz and peace dance festival deliberately, and with exceptional barbarity, to deliberately destroy any chance of a peaceful resolution to the situation in the ME.

Until Hamas can accept the right of Israel to exist this dreadful conflict will continue.

You know this is a lie. Several newspapers are now reporting Hamas fired a rocket that split and part of it dropped on the car park next to the hospital. CCN have analysis the satellite images now which shows it was not Israel. Many were injured and some killed but according to medics in that same hospital nowhere near 500 were killed. Why do you believe the propaganda from Hamas? They were the ones reporting 500 dead. No one else corroborates this figure. The medics in the hospital must know the number of fatalities.

I believe in Israel's right to exist as an independent sovereign state and for a 2 state solution, with Palestine as an independent sovereign state.

As pps have said, to me 'I stand with Israel' does not mean I support the current Israeli government, but I support the Israeli people, as I support the Palestinian people to also have a state.

I stand with Israel because if Hamas laid down their weapons today, there would be peace in the Middle East. If Israel laid down their weapons today, they would be annihilated.

Hamas is pure evil. Until Israel rids the world of Hamas, evil will remain in power.

How can you support the bombing of children ?

If Hamas are removed/wiped out, there will simply be another Hamas with a different name

Im not sure what the answer is

I stand with Israel.
I want that to stop and for the worldwide underlying hatred of Jews (just because they are Jews) to end.
One of the most shocking things I saw yesterday was a picture of a young white Polish woman carrying a placard essentially saying death to Jews. This in the country of Auschwitz.
Israelis have always lived with the knowledge that their neighbours want them all dead.
They have until now provided Gaza with water and aid.

Gaza could have been prosperous and successful if the vast amounts of foreign aid intended for the Palestinian people hadn't been stolen by Hamas to by rockets.
Recently there have been signs of progress, peace with other ME countries. Even Saudi Arabia. Hamas do not want this and that's why they have started this war. Hama don't care about the Palestinian people they just want to kill all the Jews.

A two party state was genuinely on the cards until two weeks ago. Hamas have successfully scuppered that.

I always take this type of post (of which there are plenty others) to mean:

“Hamas started it, but I support the right of the Israeli government to retaliate however they choose, however disproportionately and even it entails war crimes, the breach of international law, and the killing and starvation of hundreds of thousands”.

I would love to know whether I am mispresenting the position of @soddingspiderseason and others who make similar comments?

Also, I am saying ' I stand with Israel' because of the disgusting way so many instantly turned their faces away from the victims of the Hamas attacks, despite their appalling and deliberate barbarity and cruelty, and instantly started to talk about ' understanding' and ' context' for these racist murderers and rapists.

I am saying 'I stand with Israel' to say I completely reject this way of thinking. When you start to think that a group of people, of Jewish people, as so undeserving of caring or concern, that such brutality is not instantly and unequivocably condemned, but instead the murderers are ' understood' for their ' context' then yes, I say I stand with the Israel, to reject this narrative that so dehumanises one group of people.

@YoDood
How do you feel about the Brits dropping bombs on innocent German citizens during WW2?

Yes you are.

Hope that clarifies for you.

That’s good to hear but I genuinely would welcome your views on how that sort of post should be interpreted and what level of support it implies for the retaliatory measures being taken/proposed by the Israeli government.

Comments like those of @Loulou599 are an examplar of the rhetorical devices used in this discussion, which then mean that there’s a lack of clarity.

I mean, I assume @Loulou599 is looking for a response along the lines that I think it was right for the British to drop bombs on innocent German citizens, from which I infer that he/she supports the actions of the Israeli government. But it would be clearer if he/she would simply say that.

@YoDood
I mean I gave you my position on page 1.

Are you not going to answer the question then, or do you only ask them?

Look, taking the very reality-based position that Hamas knew exactly that their attacks would result in severe military retaliation, and that they planned and executed them with exceptional cruelty, including filming their barbarity to goad the Israeli government with, does not mean you are gleeful about the suffering now raining down on Palestinians,.

It means you can still be angry at the suffering the Palestinians are going through whilst believing that Hamas are responsible for deliberately and carefully contriving this situation in exact knowledge of how it would play out.

Those falling for Hamas' narrative and blaming Israel 100% are fools. Absolute wilfully blind fools.

Hamas need to be eradicated and I hope there are spies within and a robust plan to finish them off from the inside.

Completely agree with that, and I’m not at all suggesting that anyone is taking a gleeful enjoyment in the horrific things which are happening to citizens on both sides.

It is just more a question of whether I should read complete support for the Israeli government’s actions into the “Hamas started it”, “don’t you think the British were right” and “what do you think we should do” type posts.

This exchange is helpful in highlighting the differences which may sit under those sorts of statements. You have said that my interpretation was wrong and I take it that from that you do not fully support what the Israeli government is doing. Loulou (I think, but am not sure) does seem to support the government’s retaliation notwithstanding the resulting starvation, war crimes and breaches of international law.

Those are quite different starting points which, if made clear, are highly relevant to the discussion.

I stand with Israel. Because I am a Jew and it is our nation.
Maybe you should ask what it means when people shout Free Palestine.
It makes me shudder because I think that means no Israel and basically kill the Jews.
That reasoning is why we have our nation.
Wouldn't it be great if those who support Palestine could think up a better slogan?

There was a civil war. The land was split. Who chose to start the war, who fought in it and who won what isn't that relevant, as they are no longer the living inheritors of the situation.

But the word "Palestinian" refers to one side of that war. This is not a "Muslim" side, as there were, and are Muslims on both sides. The Palestinian side is the side which wanted to eradicate Jews from the land they had been living on for centuries. That was what they were fighting for.

No one has ever attempted to eradicate "Palestinians" from the land.

This ☝️