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Conflict in the Middle East

Hostages

1000 replies

TakeMe2Insanity · 21/10/2023 20:35

This is running on Al Jazeera and others - apparently Israel refused to take back two hostages.

https://english.alarabiya.net/amp/News/middle-east/2023/10/21/Hamas-says-intended-to-release-two-hostages-but-Israel-refused-to-receive-them

OP posts:
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84
Brilliantlydone · 24/10/2023 07:02

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 24/10/2023 00:09

Oh ok, so how do you offer something you don’t have in first place?

Do you think I'm saying they don't have hostages? Or do you think I'm being critical of Hamas when it's unwarranted? Can't tell what you mean?

A spokesperson said they had none, about ten days ago. Said they had no civilians. But they do. I'm just saying it is hard to follow or believe what they say.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 24/10/2023 07:51

Brilliantlydone · 24/10/2023 07:02

Do you think I'm saying they don't have hostages? Or do you think I'm being critical of Hamas when it's unwarranted? Can't tell what you mean?

A spokesperson said they had none, about ten days ago. Said they had no civilians. But they do. I'm just saying it is hard to follow or believe what they say.

I’m genuinely trying to work out what you were saying earlier.

TheWayTheLightFalls · 24/10/2023 07:56

I sometimes feel like I’m marking the world’s shittest GCSE history paper on here, mouthing words like “sources” and “bias” again and again.

Brilliantlydone · 24/10/2023 08:25

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 24/10/2023 07:51

I’m genuinely trying to work out what you were saying earlier.

Ok well, 👍 I'll go now 🤣

queenofarles · 24/10/2023 09:12

I wouldn’t say both sides are telling the truth either,
Israeli Ambassador denied that there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza,

they also denied they target Civilians , yet thousands have been killed .

ketchup07070 · 24/10/2023 12:52

I don't get the human shield argument - that nearly 6000 people are now dead because Hamas were standing next to them. So every time a family's house is blown up, or a school, or a church, or an ambulance or hospital, there are also Hamas terrorists holding people there at gun point and telling them not to leave?

TheWayTheLightFalls · 24/10/2023 13:51

I don't get the human shield argument - that nearly 6000 people are now dead because Hamas were standing next to them. So every time a family's house is blown up, or a school, or a church, or an ambulance or hospital, there are also Hamas terrorists holding people there at gun point and telling them not to leave?

You'll battle to get the facts on this I think.

Hamas are known to use human shields and civilian infrastructure, yes.
Hamas also has fairly crude rockets, so the rate of their own rockets mis-firing and hitting Gazan targets is high.
And its in their interest to claim eleventy million dead every time someone in Israel sneezes.

But - believing fully in the "human shield argument" means making some assumptions about the IDF and the way that they do/n't value civilian life in Gaza and how they do/n't moderate their actions according to what they find - so if there are five known terrorists, armed, on the roof of a hospital, is that a reason to destroy the building and its occupants or hold back for the sake of civilian lives? And it's very difficult to get an accurate picture, because neither side's claims can be taken at face value really. And there are hostages in the mix of course.

As I keep saying on these threads, it's an utter mess.

As a Jew I want to believe that the IDF is acting in a moral way. But I need to see it.

feralunderclass · 24/10/2023 13:53

ketchup07070 · 24/10/2023 12:52

I don't get the human shield argument - that nearly 6000 people are now dead because Hamas were standing next to them. So every time a family's house is blown up, or a school, or a church, or an ambulance or hospital, there are also Hamas terrorists holding people there at gun point and telling them not to leave?

Many human rights organizations are rebuking Israel's claims of Hamas using civilians as human shields,and claim it is a way for Israel to dehumanise Palestinians. This has been rhetoric for years.
There was a video clip/interview of paramedic Razan Al-Najjair, who was shot at by IDF and killed as she attended the injured. Her interview was edited by Israeli TV to explicitly say that she was a human shield, when this was not what she said (B'tSelem).

Chowtime · 24/10/2023 14:00

OP you must feel really silly for starting this thread.

You fell for it! The Hamas propaganda 😜

ketchup07070 · 24/10/2023 14:02

@feralunderclass Yes. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen at all, but 6000 people seems most unlikely. They can't all be standing in front of military targets with gunmen stopping them from fleeing for their lives. People trot it out - that civilians die because Hamas uses them all as human shields, and everyone just nods and goes, Oh right, of course. It sounds too glib to me.

feralunderclass · 24/10/2023 14:14

@ketchup07070 there is academic research that shows the contrary - that Israel uses Palestinians as human shields. Most you need an academic login to access, but there is one called 'Israel's Invasion of Gaza in International Law' (Bisharat, 2009) by University of Denver. It's in PDF form, which I can't share here.
It's a balanced article showing how Israel and to a lesser extent Hamas have contravened international law. Section 3 goes into the 'human shield' allegations. It's 70 sonething pages long but an informative read.

queenofarles · 24/10/2023 14:18

Chowtime
why? They’ve said they wanted to release them on Friday , but Israel refused.
its also been said that they are prepared to exchange 50 hostages for fuel, which is needed for hospital generators, and that has been refused too,
Israel has a plan and by releasing hostages it weakens their stand.

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 14:34

TheWayTheLightFalls · 24/10/2023 13:51

I don't get the human shield argument - that nearly 6000 people are now dead because Hamas were standing next to them. So every time a family's house is blown up, or a school, or a church, or an ambulance or hospital, there are also Hamas terrorists holding people there at gun point and telling them not to leave?

You'll battle to get the facts on this I think.

Hamas are known to use human shields and civilian infrastructure, yes.
Hamas also has fairly crude rockets, so the rate of their own rockets mis-firing and hitting Gazan targets is high.
And its in their interest to claim eleventy million dead every time someone in Israel sneezes.

But - believing fully in the "human shield argument" means making some assumptions about the IDF and the way that they do/n't value civilian life in Gaza and how they do/n't moderate their actions according to what they find - so if there are five known terrorists, armed, on the roof of a hospital, is that a reason to destroy the building and its occupants or hold back for the sake of civilian lives? And it's very difficult to get an accurate picture, because neither side's claims can be taken at face value really. And there are hostages in the mix of course.

As I keep saying on these threads, it's an utter mess.

As a Jew I want to believe that the IDF is acting in a moral way. But I need to see it.

For the sake of the Palestinian people I would like to believe it too
And then I see the comments that the Israeli ministers have made since the war has started and unfortunately for me it doesn't seem so

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StarbucksSmarterSister · 24/10/2023 14:57

feralunderclass · 24/10/2023 13:59

She also said those who kidnapped her hit her with sticks. I expect the ones running things will treat the civilians relatively well since they are bargaining tools. And let's not forget her husband is still a hostage. It will be interesting to see what any released hostages say when this crisis is over.

OhHelloTheres · 24/10/2023 15:18

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67204479.amp

Hidden in a network of tunnels and being fed and cared for by doctors. Looks great on the face of it, doesn't it? Until you think about it a little bit more.

Where are tunnels? They're underground. What's on top of that ground? Cities, towns, hospitals, schools, playgrounds, roads. All of a sudden, all these things become legitimate military targets if the aim is to get rid of Hamas and their infrastructure. So what about the people who live there? They're literal human shields, standing in between the bombs and Hamas.

Gazans are dying due to lack of food, water, medical supplies. Yet they have all of that for Hamas and their hostages? Well, some of the hostages anyway. They even have their very own doctors, it seems. The only way Hamas still have food etc is if they're either taking it from civilians, are being actively supplied by civilians or if they have been stocking up on supplies for months (years?) because they knew exactly what was going to happen after their massacre.

I still think it's pretty obvious Hamas are only releasing hostages who still have everything to lose as they have family members still being kept hostage and therefore won't want to rock the boat by giving honest descriptions of what has happened. That's just what I think though, I have no proof of it.

Yocheved Lifshitz sits in a wheelchair and shakes hands with a man

I went through hell, says 85-year-old hostage released by Hamas - BBC News

Yocheved Lifschitz says she was kidnapped and taken into a "spider's web" of tunnels underneath Gaza.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67204479.amp

OhHelloTheres · 24/10/2023 15:23

@Parkingt111
Could you please show me the article in which Daniel Hagari said that? I can't find it on the Haaretz website. Would like to read the whole thing to see what the context was

EasternStandard · 24/10/2023 15:25

Trulywonderful · 23/10/2023 22:46

Hamas are just constant with these lies

The Hamas leader today in an interview for western media outlets. He claimed that on 7th October they had never planned on killing civilians.

He said of civilian deaths: "If there was any killing, this was definitely not intended. Definitely."

I mean there are lots of live views and Hamas used victims phones to live stream or send photos to their Jewish relatives. Sick lying fuckwits. Still a large number of western idiots will believe Hamas.

Barbaric Sad

Alcemeg · 24/10/2023 15:25

At 03:00 in this video, a Hamas activist claims that each hostage earns the kidnapper a stipend of an apartment and $10K back in Gaza.

Or at least that's what he was told.

No doubt every room stuffed with virgins?!

These Hamas lads don't seem terribly bright.

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Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnLq0DjEr

Trulywonderful · 24/10/2023 15:29

Alcemeg · 24/10/2023 15:25

At 03:00 in this video, a Hamas activist claims that each hostage earns the kidnapper a stipend of an apartment and $10K back in Gaza.

Or at least that's what he was told.

No doubt every room stuffed with virgins?!

These Hamas lads don't seem terribly bright.

Edited

Yep that makes sense

They needed to be sure that these personnel guards would behave and not allow anything nasty to be done to the hostages

I really don't think this will be the case for all hostages though. Just the few luck ones.

Alcemeg · 24/10/2023 15:32

I wouldn't go as far as to say that they wouldn't allow anything nasty to be done the hostages... but it does explain how, after repeatedly throwing grenades into a shelter, they bundled the scrappy and bleeding remains of the few festivalgoers left alive into the back of a truck, e.g.

Anderson Cooper had a realization about a hostage during a live interview with his parents

CNN's Anderson Cooper speaks with the parents of Hersh Goldberg-Polin, a 23-year-old American who was wounded and kidnapped by Hamas at an Israeli music fest...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QqFweh3CC4

Parkingt111 · 24/10/2023 15:34

OhHelloTheres · 24/10/2023 15:23

@Parkingt111
Could you please show me the article in which Daniel Hagari said that? I can't find it on the Haaretz website. Would like to read the whole thing to see what the context was

Hey I didn't see the interview but it's been reported in the guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza

Hostages
Desertrose2023 · 24/10/2023 15:37

EasternStandard · 24/10/2023 15:25

Barbaric Sad

What’s barbaric is genocide. 6000 Palestinian civilians dead in 2 weeks. 2 million people without water, electricity, food or medicine. Premature babies in NICUs dying because generators can’t be sustained.

Israel is a barbaric apartheid state.

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