Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?

[MaggieFS]

Firstly, please excuse my naivety and note that I don't support either side in the current conflict. I am appalled but the atrocities inflicted by both sides.

The media attention has caused me to read up on the complicated history.

One thing I can't understand. After 1967 Israeli settlers moved into what had been proposed as Palestinian Territories after 1947. Why? At an individual level, were people incentivised?

Also Hamas certainly know what Netanyahu is like and how he would react.

www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/21/israel-hamas-war-live-biden-hostages-israel-gaza-ground-assault-border-crossing-palestinians-aid

I'm with the UN's call for a ceasefire.

He is a criminal isn’t he? And has been for a long time. Awful for his neighbours, his own people, and the larger world. People will look back and say, how was he allowed to get away with it?

I don’t understand how you can not take into account the attack from Hamas on Israel and the psychological impact of having 1,200 citizens murdered and 300 captured in such a brutal way.
The Israeli security services have been seen to be weak and ineffective and they are struggling to re-establish themselves as credible.
They have the military power to flatten Gaza in a day but have only bombed Hamas military positions.
They have told civilians to evacuate to the South of the City.
They send texts before they bomb a building.
What response would you think would be proportionate?

@squidnames

I wrote the post below with you in mind:

*The thing I find most egregious is that if I had posted on a thread that concerned the black community and a number of black Mumsnetters said to me that my post was racist even if I hadn't intended it that way at all I would be a) mortified b) incredibly apologetic and c) if books or links were suggested to me that highlighted why my words might be interpreted that way I would have the humility to read them and educate myself.

Posters on this and the other similar threads just carry on telling me my understanding of antisemitism is wrong and then continue to be even more offensive.

Like a previous poster, I do not support the settlements. I have demonstrated in Westminster against the current Israeli government. I feel desperate at the plight of innocent Palestinians. And yet I've never been accused of antisemitism because I know the difference between the Israeli Government. Israel. Israelis. And "The Jews"*

You are so quick to point others to reading material yet you have not done the same and cannot accept that some of your comments come across as unbelievably poorly informed or worse still antisemitic.

Your comments have not been taken out of context. I've read every one of them. Most recently you have said there are law firms that "only hire Jews". This is the kind of pernicious, false, anti semitic "Jews rule the world" type of narrative that in itself perpetuates the anti-Jewish feeling in the world.

Shame on you. Your ignorance is no excuse.

Not killing thousands of innocent children so everyone will hate them would be a start.

But you can't just rock up to any Muslim country because you are Muslim and live there, never mind being given money to live there. The Palestinians can't even go back to their homes. I'm genuinely shocked at the attitude that everybody else should just find somewhere else to live but someone who's grandmother was Jewish has automatic rights to a land, at the cost to indigenous people. Unapologetic ethnic cleansing at its best.

I am not Jewish. Obviously I have only seen the small segment posted above, but I find these weasel words deeply repugnant. He is careful to say he is against violence and then quickly moves to say he was exhilarated at the Hamas attack? Because it changed the monopoly on violence? There was nothing “exhilarating” about the murders carried out by Hamas and likewise there is nothing to be celebrated by the bombing of Gaza. Honestly I despair of humanity with this thinly veiled celebration of violence.

@LondonMummer No, I am not an anti semite. But there are law firms as such, I have seen one in Holborn. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, there are many companies that hire people from their own ethnic backgrounds etc. it's just the way it is. I am allowed to express my opinion. I do believe you have taken my posts out of context. Strange how you are constantly targeting me, but there is a poster Mushti on another thread who is condoning violence but you do not call that out. I feel targeted and bullied by you as you have ripped my opinion to suit your narrative. All of your posts are not openminded and biased but you can't see that.

@LondonMummer I am going to name change now as feel bullied by you. You need to look in the mirror, I'm incredulous that you can't see your inherent bias in your posts. Quick to hunt another person down to accuse someone of being anti semitic. People like you drive of posters with other viewpoints. So there will not be any viewpoints left then save for The pro-Israel. Even the aggressive pro Israel ones which are currently from people of the same faith, piling on anyone who disagrees. The ease in which you can call someone an anti semite and in the same vein not shut down the awful things people say about the Palestinians should clue you in on your inherent bias. Shame on you. You've let your tribal mindset shut down any other opinions. Hope you can get off your high horse and think about this.

Your responses to @lavender2023 are unnecessarily harsh. Everyone’s opinions are informed by their life experiences and viewpoints they are exposed to - including yours! No one is totally objective, including you. Your comment insinuated that this posters comments were less valid than yours because they were not objective, can you not see the hypocrisy in this statement?

You were also very rude about the information shared about the discrimination her DH faced in the work place, indeed deliberately misinterpreting it and stating it was positive discrimination, as if!!

You complain about not being able to have an objective discussion whilst being rude and condescending to another poster who has taken time to share some insights into their life and the life of their wider family in Israel, which I have found interesting.

Your lack of respect for other posters who do not post what YOU find acceptable, marks out your inability to discuss reasonably. Seriously have some self reflection.

Your rudeness distracts from the important topic of the violence that is taking place in the Middle East.

I’ve been reading about this for days, not only in English , but also in French and with some help in Arabic , my mind feels so heavy .
but I haven’t seen anyone mention how some lands moved from Ottoman Empire to jews Via some prominent families in Lebanon and Syria, it’s argued that these families brokered these sales on behalf of Russian Jews . For various reasons , not all Palestinians landowners were able to register their lands and those who did lost their right during the British Mandate.

It really becomes a matter of ethics , why were the Sarsock land sales to the Jews were considered valid but not the Ottoman registered Palestinian lands. I can’t find any valid answer to that.

@Lokidances come on now! @squidnames and @lavender2023 were debating their different opinions about a topic they were both discussing on a public forum. Why did you feel you had to stick your oar in? @lavender2023 can speak for herself and was doing so; same for @squidnames. @squidnames was no more nor less ruder than the average Mumsnetter. Now @squidnames felt bullied by another user into name changing, would you defend her against them?
Quoting you here "Your lack of respect for other posters who do not post what YOU find acceptable, marks out your inability to discuss reasonably. Seriously have some self reflection."

I do appreciate what @Lokidances said

Squidnames wasn't 'no more ruder than the average Mumsnetter' - Squidnames posted antisemitic comments. Not political opinions - comments that knowingly or unknowingly were actually antisemitic. Please, I urge you to read my VERY measured posts in response from the start of this thread when I explained calmly why they were antisemitic and what my reaction would have been if I'd ever posted comments that any black Mumsnetters called out as racist.

Calling out posts that are knowingly or unknowingly deeply offensive to people is not bullying.

@LondonMummer regarding there being some law firms recruiting only Jews, she said "there are law firms as such, I have seen one in Holborn. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, there are many companies that hire people from their own ethnic backgrounds etc."
Why would you think this represents antisemitism? There probably are law firms recruiting only Muslims because they specialise in Islamic finance/ divorce, etc. Will I be accused of being an islamophobe for saying this?

To keep accusing people of being antisemitic whenever one is criticising Israel does nothing but stifle debate. What about the Jewish people who do this? Would you accuse them of being antisemitic too?

Here's an excellent piece from Abraham Gutman, a Jewish Israeli:

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/how-jews-can-support-palestinian-rights-condemn-antisemitism-ncna1268680

"Historically, criticism of the Israeli government has been linked to antisemitism. But it’s not nearly that simple. By conflating Judaism and Israel, the Israeli government created a paradox in which Israel’s actions are beyond critique. The irony is that Zionism and antisemitism are each other's best recruiting tools.
...

It is this conflation between Israel and Judaism, one that is baked into the foundation of Israel and perpetuated by its leaders, that leads to a problematic tautology: Israel’s leaders represent all Jewish people, and thus by definition any criticism of Israel must be criticism of all Jewish people — and hence antisemitic.

This tautology allows accusations of antisemitism to be weaponized, particularly against people who speak up about Palestinian rights — sometimes in ridiculous ways."

A very good read that I highly recommend.

Anti zionism is definitely not antisemitism.

57% of British Jews are Zionists. I am not a clear cut Zionist though I support israel 's sovereignty (it is a country that has been here for more than 70 years). Anti Zionism does veer into anti semitism territory as the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is important to most jews (perhaps just not me as I am fairly secular). Supporting every other group's aspiration for self determination with the exception of the Jewish people is absolute anti-Semitism

Let me make myself crystal clear. I have not accused @squidnames or indeed anyone else of antisemitism due to any anti Israel or anti Zionist comments. I called out antisemitism due to a number of specific comments in her posts about "Jews"

Specifically:

"This is not something that Jews only face and they cannot keep using the Holocaust as a reason to say they will only ever be safe in Israel"

"A Jewish person is not clearly an other - a dark skinned person like me"

"There are Jewish run law firms that hire only Jews. It's hard to feel sorry for your high paying Banker DH"

Let me tell you if you read the International definition of antisemitism you will find all three of these examples fit neatly into the description.

For what it's worth I also reported this disgraceful post from another poster

"now I am really worried to know the jews from my neighbour hood waiting to get an entry into palestain only to settle as second rated citizens as settlers and to feel secure ,they start oppressing palestains in wetbank. I only wish my home govt do not encourage this wih our local Jews."

Not getting at you, but one promoted definition of anti semitism is to say that there's a parallel/repeat.
Personally I disagree.
No individual or state in my book should have a free-pass from comments/criticisms - that way lies game-playing/repression. And a denial of the horrors of human nature. Which folks need to be aware of.

@feralunderclass you seem to be denying Israel's right to exist as a country and to set its own immigration criteria. Israel is entirely free to set its own criteria as to who it allows to immigrate there - just like every other country in the world does. Israel allows the right of return to all Jews because Jews never know when they will need a safe place to escape to.

And please let's not talk about indigenous people - unless you're prepared to acknowledge that Jewish people are also indigenous to that part of the world.

Moving into people's homes and taking their land too doesnt seem justifiable in any way to me. It would always lead to war. Its not OK just because time has passed. I remember reading about a Palestinian family who got the knock on the door telling them to get out 'its ours now'. Struck me that what the woman of the family mainly remembered was looking back after theyd been forced to leave, and seeing the curtains she'd made herself, being pulled closed. & that was that. Gist of story as can't remember word for word. But at the time I wondered how people here would feel if their homes were taken over just like that and they were turfed out...

I absolutely do not reject Jews as being indigenous to Palestine. Do I think the Jewish people should have a homeland? Yes, absolutely. Do I think the state of Israel should exist as it stands? No. I reject any country that comes about as an occupation. Of course it can set any immigration laws it wants, but do I think this should be at the expense of people already living there? No. There are many aspects of Israeli policy that contravene international law, and it continues to do so with impunity. That is never OK in my book.

In June this year there was a famous case on the news about a seventy something year old woman who had been born in a house in Jerusalem, which had been in her family for generations. She was served an eviction notice to leave as it was being given to a Jewish family (this is in the Muslim quarter BTW). Many Jewish people were demonstrating outside and had erected Israeli flags, the new inhabitants were there and waiting to move in. They were forced out - with force - and the woman's son (who had grown up in the house) asked if they could take some of the furniture. Under the law they weren't allowed to take anything, nothing was hers now and she just had to accept that.

@feralunderclass if you're talking about the case I'm thinking if - you've only mentioned half the story! The property was Jewish owned until 1948 when it was illegally seized by Jordan. It was then rented to a Palestinian family by Jordan and the Palestinian family then ended up squatting there, although it was often empty.

There was a 45 year court case in Israel to determine whether they had the right to live there or not. 45 years!!! It was eventually decided that they didn't have the right to live there and they were evicted. The description you've given paints a very inaccurate picture. But that's what you wanted no?

Settlers Palestinians under attack as Israeli settler violence surges in the West Bank - BBC News