Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?

[MaggieFS]

Firstly, please excuse my naivety and note that I don't support either side in the current conflict. I am appalled but the atrocities inflicted by both sides.

The media attention has caused me to read up on the complicated history.

One thing I can't understand. After 1967 Israeli settlers moved into what had been proposed as Palestinian Territories after 1947. Why? At an individual level, were people incentivised?

I understand this. I despire the holocaust. At the same time the creation of Israel has been fraught with problems and from what's I’ve read Jews have been reluctant to criticise the Israeli government. I can understand why Jews are defensive but this is a huge mistake. Netanyahu appears to be a criminal by anyone’s standards even before this conflict. To condemn the actions of Hamas goes without saying, even though many may say you cannot victimise a nation in the way Israel has and not be surprised by reprercussions. To not condemn the destruction of Palestine will turn the world against Israel. Then to claim antisemitism? I have tried my best to be sympathetic. But you can’t have it both ways.

There are many, many Muslim countries. People can emigrate there if they wish, depending on the rules of the relevant country. The incentives that are given or not given to immigrants are entirely a matter for those countries to decide for themselves.

Something like 80% of Israeli Jews are critical of netanyahu now. It's probably higher in the diaspora. My DH and I are Jewish and we have sympathy for the Palestinians while recognizing Israel's right to exist. What I think is a no go marker for most Jewish people is the idea of a Jewish homeland. I am more of a secular person (even if I am privately religious as a progressive Jew) so I don't see ethnoreligious states as the ideal (though Israel was founded that way and we can't erase history completely). It's founders were secular but they subscribed to a belief in Jewish nationhood which I suppose was also shaped by their experiences of early 1900s europe..But I do identify with the idea of there being a place of refuge for persecuted Jews protected by an army, though whether this goal can be reconciled with the idea of an Israel as a state for all of its inhabitants (Jewish and otherwise), I don't have a clear picture.

The idea of a Jewish homeland(and a state which prioritizes the religious rights of Jews and is shaped the way religious orthodox Jews want it to be) is however very importance to most religious Jews which I view as a handicap to any future peaceful negotiations. However sadly, they have more of a political voice than people like me. I am convinced most people want to live together peacefully but they may not realize that their own preconceptions of what they want and are raised to believe are true may be getting in the way.

That's simply not true and I don't understand your point. Discrimination is not a race to the bottom. There are all different kinds of ill treatment and prejudice, all of which are wrong.

Many Jewish people are dark skinned or have distinctive features. Many Jewish people who don't have those features have faced prejudice and discrimination for not having those features and passing as non-Jewish.

There is a big difference between the two religions though. I have not met a religious Muslim who believes it's a religious obligation to live in a country with Sharia law. In fact many religious Muslims actively choose to move from countries like Pakistan to the UK.

On the other hand, my Orthodox MIL believes it's a duty of every Jew to move to Israel if they can..cos it's the most natural place for a Jew to live in..every year at passover table, we say next year in Jerusalem. It's a religious obligation.

She would probably never do it even though 50% of her children live there because of financial considerations (she knows the free perks and benefits are only a band aid) and also it is quite hard to move somewhere at 61 if you don't speak the language. Many Jews in the diaspora would not move to Israel any time soon but may hold the same 'philosophical viewpoint' as my MIL.

There was a photo on my Facebook feed shared by many friends which goes something like this-

colleague - do you have any family in Israel

Me- yes a few million of them

Or this:

Someone asked me if I know anyone who was killed. I was puzzled by his question.
"I know all of them," I answered. He was puzzled by my response.
So I wrote this to explain it:

I don’t know you, but I saw you at that bar.
I don’t know you, but you took my parking spot.
I don’t know you, but our parents are friends.
I don’t know you, but I can hear you playing matkot on the beach.
I don’t know you, but your smile made me smile.
I don’t know you, but we argued in a WhatsApp group.
I don’t know you, but we ate together at Chabad.
I don’t know you, but you almost ran me over with your korkinet.
I don’t know you, but you were once my waitress.
I don’t know you, but you gave me your seat on the bus.
I don’t know you, but I saved your place in line at the bank, at the post office, and at the grocery store.
I don’t know you, but we loved the same music.
I don’t know you, but we learned Torah together.
I don’t know you, but we shared a joint in Sinai.
I don’t know you, but we stood next to each other at Mount Sinai.
I don't know you, but we stood next to each other on Kaplan.
I don’t know you, but I know you.
I don’t know you, but I love you.
I don’t know you, but I will always remember you.

This is why they say Jews are a tribe and central to that is Israel.

@thinkfast my point was in reference to another posters point. It's now grossly taken out of context. I'm not saying Jewish people aren't discriminated against. I know it's not a competition. As a dark skinned Indian with a funny foreign accent I know what racism means trust me. Also coming from a foreign country, the supposed facial stereotypes of Jews were alien to me till very recently and not something that really resonated with me - outside of Europe, people know about history but focus on other aspects (eg more Asian focused/colonization).
I was countering a post that in my opinion was aggressive as it validated the violence from Israel on the Palestinians based on the fact that Jewish people are discriminated against and face discrimination all over the world . That I disagree with. Being on the receiving end of racism like many other races does not give anyone the right to attack innocents. Shame how that point is not addressed or equally vilified.

@squidnames my DH grew up having stones thrown at him when he took the bus home in London as a teen..it was his blazer with the school logo... he also has a Hebrew name and his CV shows that he has only has been to Jewish schools..we don't think it is a coincidence that he has only ever gotten roles at huge banks (which generally have very strong diversity policies). He would apply to the same small firms as me but not get the job. But it means that while he earns more working at a large corporation, his employment prospects are more narrow in the sense, he does not bother applying for anything that is not a big bank because he knows he wouldn't get it. I do see it with our social circle, a lot of our friends work for nhs, civil service (which are more inclusive) or they are in the professions (and they almost always have a Jewish contact at the firm) or they have their own businesses (or work for their family business). This is especially true for those of our friends who are more obviously Jewish due to their name or appearance.

But having said all of that, Israel is such a tough country to live in that this kind of discrimination can all be true but it's still better to live in UK for a well educated British Jew (esp if he has a family home in London and a strong network)..

@lavender2023 such a tribal mindset can bring about a lot of inherent bias which surely will not end this war.
We can't keep using history, race, religion to prolong this war any further.
What next? Can India follow a similar approach and attempt to "claim back" Pakistan, Bangladesh by force?
This has to end. I don't think the Israelis are on the wrong side of history but Netanyahu is. Would be a shame for people to not stand against a war criminal because of a tribal mindset.

I don't get your point? You're saying that he's positively discriminated as an adult because he's Jewish so he gets high paying jobs?

@lavender2023 Also, I grew up being called Apunaneh in Singapore and having teachers making fun of my skin color. I recall the "Mandarin Only" jobs ads in Singapore.
As a Singaporean I'm sure this is something you would be aware of. Fact is minority races are discriminated against. I'm not disputing the racism that Jews face. But this does not mean it's ok to occupy/attack Gaza.
I'm not interested in how expensive it is to live in Israel or the job prospects in Israel for your banker DH or anyone for that matter.
Lives are being lost and what is paramount is for people to be objective and call out war crimes.

@lavender2023 I was responding to another poster whose post indicated that Jews don't deserve a homeland because other ethnicities don't have one. And who appeared to object to some of the benefits of making Aaliyah.

Not all of us believe that we have a religious duty to move to Israel. Some of us Jews aren't at all religious.

I am saying that the discrimination is such that he can only get roles in companies which pride themselves on diversity (ethnic diversity at least). This naturally narrows the pool of jobs he can apply for and can pose a problem if he can't get those jobs in banks which tend to attract more applicants anyway....it's the same problem faced by many immigrants esp in the past (I remember when I was immigrating in 2014, the ones who tended to offer sponsorship for visas for immigrants were large firms). My DH may not need visa sponsorship as a Brit but by default if he isn't working for a bank, he probably isn't working at all!

He doesn't wear a kippah as he isn't religious. He would probably get physically attacked at some point if he did. But even without dressing like a religious Jew, he still faces discrimination.

Hamas knew how Netanyahu would react.
How do you think most countries would react to the kind of terrorism that Hamas perpetrated on October 7? I'm not saying it's right, I'm just asking what you think Israel ought to be doing?

@lavender2023 What has this got to do with the war? There are also Jewish run law firms that only hire Jews? It's quite hard to feel sorry for your high paying banker DH. I work in a large company, and am pretty sure that I wasn't hired solely for my race to tick some box, very offensive to say that. My very Indian sounding name statistically limits my opportunity vs someone named Mary for example. You can research this.
I get that you have family of Jewish faith. But we can't have a tribal mindset, and come to conclusions based on anecdotes.
Surely we can all agree that this war has to end regardless of our faiths.

The most common trope is that Jewish Israelis can go back to Europe/USA and the common (anti-Semitic) assumption is that they are recently arrived immigrants from Europe. That is not true and my explanation of the cost of living in Israel Vis a vis the UK/USA means that even though Jews from Western countries can move to Israel, the reality is few do in percentage terms despite the best efforts of the Aliyah organisations. Same for the USA. Most Jews flee from countries where they genuinely can no longer live in- ex Soviet Union, Asia and the middle east. Hence why their attitude is very different from mine or my DH. When Israel goes to war it's an existential crisis for them. I am not excusing what netanyahu is doing but the fact is people are scared and weary after years of war. And have nowhere else to go so it makes them even more scared..

The Hamas atrocities has shocked Israel to its core..yes I think it is counterproductive to occupy gaza(it would just be like the Afghanistan war which did not achieve anything)but the Israeli people want to exterminate Hamas with good reason..how do you propose we do that..I think they should take out the Hamas high command, perhaps they could send mossad to Doha where haniyah lives but perhaps I don't know enough about military strategy. They do want to destroy the tunnels but the problem is that Gaza is so densely populated...

@thinkfast Have you not read about the short time frame that was given to the Palestinians to evacuate? That would have been a start. Have you not read the phrases that Netanyahu is using to incite anti Islam sentiment.
By asking me this question you obviously think it's right. Let's not pretend.
I don't think I can ask for an objective response to this war.

Depends on what you're reading I suppose but that really isn't the most common trope I'm reading.
Like I mentioned before doubt I will get objectivity here.

@lavender2023 Also to point out. As you have close links to Israel your opinions are founded based this. There's just no objectivity.

@lavender2023 there's another thread with more Palestinian, Arab opinions. I would recommend reading too

Please don't presume to know my opinions unless I post them.

I'm no fan of Netanyahu. I feel strongly for the Israelis who have been murdered, abused and abducted by Hamas terrorists. And I feel strongly for innocent Palestinians who are caught up in a war. I also believe in Israel's right to exist and to defend itself, but believe that defence should be proportionate. It was an honest question, what do you think Israel's response should be? How do you think they might have a hope of getting more hostages back? How do you see some kind of resolution being achieved?

I feel immense despair and sadness at the horror of the situation; so don't appreciate your tone.

@thinkfast In my defense, the tone you used when you posed the question was incredibly goady. My response was based off that.

@thinkfast there's another thread on this with solutions to the questions you posed. We can't go back and change what happened but we can call for a demand a ceasefire.
A link to a guardian article was posted on another thread but I can't seem to link here.

I don't think my tone was goady..... everyone knows what Netanyahu is like. It's not hard to imagine the kind of response he would make to a massive terrorist attack. Many other countries would react in a similar way IMO.

I was genuinely asking what an appropriate response would be, as I cannot see a way through this and having seen some extremely distressing images of the antisemitism on parade in London today I feel utterly broken.

It came across as goady, when ironically we both want the same thing. and not everyone knows what Netanhayu is like. There is another thread which I would urge you to read.
I'm not a military person but surely there needs to be a ceasefire.

Are you suggesting a permanent ceasefire? I don't think that's a realistic prospect. Not while Hamas still have hostages, weapons, launching rockets etc.

My suggestion would be a humanitarian corridor via Egypt to let civilians escape. But I don't think that works either as Egypt doesn't want them and Hamas won't let them leave.