Page 7 | Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?

MaggieFS · 2023-10-19T16:38:55+00:00

Firstly, please excuse my naivety and note that I don't support either side in the current conflict. I am appalled but the atrocities inflicted by both sides. The media attention has caused me to read up on the complicated history. One thing I can't understand. After 1967 Israeli settlers moved into what had been proposed as Palestinian Territories after 1947. Why? At an individual level, were people incentivised?

daytriptovulcan · 21/10/2023 17:37

They did it because they could, and Palestinians could offer insufficient resistance...to fulfill the ambition for a Greater Israel. With the backing of the USA, from where many of the West Bank settlers originate, they are unstoppable.
I remember writing dissertations on this at uni over 20 years ago, studying IR, not much has changed, sadly.
The solution is available when the US compells Israel to accept a 2 state solution, which incidentally is advocated by the UK and EU.

squidnames · 21/10/2023 17:48

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 13:55

People who question the right of Israel to exist and defend itself don't usually question the right of Singapore to exist and defend itself.. Singapore is younger than Israel and there is literally no cultural reason why it exists- it was expelled out of the federation of Malaysia in 1965 due to a difference in political ideology between the respective leaders (Singaporean leaders wanted a secular multiracial state built on meritocracy, Malaysia wanted a Muslim country with special rights to the Malays to redress colonial injustices). Otherwise the culture across both countries was almost identical. And before the British colonial period, it was all Malay land (albeit a fishing village). It was the British that brought in the Chinese and Indians and malays migrated from the rest of the archipelago. It is now over 70% Chinese and that was actually the work of the British.

Like Israel it is an accident of history like many new nation states. Even if you don't believe in the necessity of a homeland for the Jewish people (which I admit it is a religious concept which I don't fully embrace as a liberal Jew/secularist), it has been a country and UN member for 70 years and should be respected. If it wants to accept Jewish immigrants from all over the world, then that it their policy. Could they treat their non Jewish citizens better, definitely. Could they try harder to repair relations with their neighbours, definitely. But that has nothing to do with whether Israel should exist as a country, it is a country like Singapore is a country, here to stay. New nation states are often accidents of history but now they have been established, their sovereignty should be respected.

Edited

Singapore isn't trying to take over Malaysian land though.

noblegiraffe · 21/10/2023 18:18

MissyB1 · 21/10/2023 16:31

I’ve yet to see any convincing justification for what the Israeli forces are currently doing to the Palestinian people, and I very much doubt that I will. Why? Because there is no justification is there?

And for the millionth time no that doesn’t make me pro Hamas or anti semitic.

I'm assuming that you also can't see any convincing justification for the awful recent attack by Hamas on the Israeli people.

MissyB1 · 21/10/2023 18:59

@noblegiraffe
you assume correctly. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 19:29

feralunderclass · 21/10/2023 16:41

Thanks @lavender2023 for that. If what you are saying is correct though, then that means that a lot of Israelis (whom I'm assuming are all Jews) prefer life in the West, so they can't be that fearful for their lives or worried that they are going to die out as a race? And I'm genuinely not being goady or argumentative here, I think discussion is very healthy and needed. But from your stats it doesn't support the claim that posters are making that a Jewish state is needed in order for Jews to flourish.

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Many Israelis don't have the ability to migrate to the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews

If you look at the table which records paternal country of diaspora origin, while european origin jews number 33.6%, half of that (15%) are from the Soviet Union and a further 8% are from Bulgaria/Romania (ex soviet union). 2.7% come from North america.

The vast vast majority of Israeli Jews originate from the Middle East, Soviet Union and Asia- in countries which are not kind to Jewish people. I would not consider France kind to Jewish people either, they have a real problem with anti semitism. The really comfortable country for Jewish people is USA and to a certain extent UK and as you can see from the stats, they number for 3.4% of Israeli Jews. Western Jews are not living in Israel in any large numbers (and I say that as someone with family there), Israel is for the Jews who are less lucky (and have nowhere else to go). the Jewish agency would probably be angry at me for saying this though but the stats don't lie.

Israeli Jews - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 19:32

squidnames · 21/10/2023 17:48

Singapore isn't trying to take over Malaysian land though.

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Malaysia hasn't invaded though. Israel's invasions were in response to the wars. Israel is a state that was created by the UN, the Jews accepted and the arabs rejected it. It is still a legitimate state.

The UK colonized the world before it had to dismantle its empire, we do not say the UK isn't a country because it invaded some countries. Its also why I give Israel some leeway though i am critical and says it could do better. It is a young country. What were we doing in our earlier history?

Parkingt111 · 21/10/2023 19:38

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 19:29

Many Israelis don't have the ability to migrate to the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews

If you look at the table which records paternal country of diaspora origin, while european origin jews number 33.6%, half of that (15%) are from the Soviet Union and a further 8% are from Bulgaria/Romania (ex soviet union). 2.7% come from North america.

The vast vast majority of Israeli Jews originate from the Middle East, Soviet Union and Asia- in countries which are not kind to Jewish people. I would not consider France kind to Jewish people either, they have a real problem with anti semitism. The really comfortable country for Jewish people is USA and to a certain extent UK and as you can see from the stats, they number for 3.4% of Israeli Jews. Western Jews are not living in Israel in any large numbers (and I say that as someone with family there), Israel is for the Jews who are less lucky (and have nowhere else to go). the Jewish agency would probably be angry at me for saying this though but the stats don't lie.

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I thought by birth right anyone who can prove they are Jewish can move to Israel. With lots of perks offered and free flights too. To make Aliyah

I Hope I have spelt that correctly

As the Jewish population grows and more and more Jews especially from America come to Israel, where will they all live?
Is that an issue Israel is having hence the settlers in the west bank? The settlers who have been causing alot of havoc

squidnames · 21/10/2023 19:50

@lavender2023, your comparison to Singapore and Malaysia does not make sense. I'm not British, I'm Indian so can't speak on behalf of British in response to your question "what were we doing in our earlier history".
You're bending the truth and history to suit your narrative.

Time2OpenYourEyes · 21/10/2023 19:57

feralunderclass · 20/10/2023 14:50

Honest question: Imagine you lived in a house on a farm that your family had owned for hundreds of years and was your livelihood. Your life. Your children's home. One day you had a knock on the door, and you are told that the government has decided with other states to give land to the Roma people, who have been persecuted for thousands of years. Your house and land is now going to be given to a Roma family arriving from America. It's now going to be their homeland.You refuse, so you and your family are forced to move at gun point. The Western world are telling you to "get over it and move on" and to "stop pining for mere land". Are you, the loser here, who now has NO home, ever going to accept this as a homeland for the Roma?
Then the government PAY people to come and more and more land and water and resources is needed, so it's taken, and you are told how you need to accept that it is their right. Your people are imprisoned, tortured, women raped, children abused, homes and farms destroyed. Your child is diagnosed with cancer but the permit system (because a wall has been built which restricts access to the road) has a backlog and there is a twelve week waiting list just to apply so your child is dying before your eyes. You are helpless, extremely angry, heartbroken. Are you going to accept your home as the homeland for these people?

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This.
Extremely well explained. Thank you.

squidnames · 21/10/2023 20:27

@Time2OpenYourEyes very well put. Thank you.

squidnames · 21/10/2023 20:28

Sorry meant to tag @feralunderclass

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 21:01

Parkingt111 · 21/10/2023 19:38

I thought by birth right anyone who can prove they are Jewish can move to Israel. With lots of perks offered and free flights too. To make Aliyah

I Hope I have spelt that correctly

As the Jewish population grows and more and more Jews especially from America come to Israel, where will they all live?
Is that an issue Israel is having hence the settlers in the west bank? The settlers who have been causing alot of havoc

Show quote history

I can move to Israel even though I am not jewish by birth including with free flights and perks. I am married to a British Jew (by birth) and I also converted to a recognized denomination of Judaism, so doubly qualified. But why would we do so?

We couldn't afford to buy a property in Tel Aviv (average price 1 million) while we currently own a flat in London. DH's current salary as an AVP in compliance in a bank (so not investment banking and not a highly paid function) is equivalent to an average high tech worker salary in Tel aviv (and high tech is the best paid industry in Israel and only 10% of the population work in it, it's very competitive). The main language in Israel is Ivrit which my DH isn't fluent in despite 12 years in Jewish school, so good luck getting a highly sought after job if you don't have the language, contacts or amazing experience! Food in Israel is 30% higher than UK costs...I could go on.

you can imagine from an American's perspective - esp if they are financially established in places like new York,- how the math makes even less viable. Some people still do it though, but out of idealism and certainly not for the financial benefits..there is a saying- if you want to make a million in Israel, bring a million. The settlers are there because of idealism but also because there is a housing crisis in Israel (like many other countries)..as you can see from the stats, this is not due to people from USA or UK largely because the maths simply does not stack up. Israel is incredibly expensive without the pay to match and most Jewish people in UK/USA know this

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 21:05

squidnames · 21/10/2023 19:50

@lavender2023, your comparison to Singapore and Malaysia does not make sense. I'm not British, I'm Indian so can't speak on behalf of British in response to your question "what were we doing in our earlier history".
You're bending the truth and history to suit your narrative.

Comparison to Britain's colonial past is that Israel is a young country and most countries have made huge mistakes earlier in their history.

The UN declared Israel a state in 1948. Mistakes were made after that and I will not deny that..they are still making mistakes. But it is a country just like Singapore is and it should be treated as such.

Parkingt111 · 21/10/2023 21:06

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 21:01

I can move to Israel even though I am not jewish by birth including with free flights and perks. I am married to a British Jew (by birth) and I also converted to a recognized denomination of Judaism, so doubly qualified. But why would we do so?

We couldn't afford to buy a property in Tel Aviv (average price 1 million) while we currently own a flat in London. DH's current salary as an AVP in compliance in a bank (so not investment banking and not a highly paid function) is equivalent to an average high tech worker salary in Tel aviv (and high tech is the best paid industry in Israel and only 10% of the population work in it, it's very competitive). The main language in Israel is Ivrit which my DH isn't fluent in despite 12 years in Jewish school, so good luck getting a highly sought after job if you don't have the language, contacts or amazing experience! Food in Israel is 30% higher than UK costs...I could go on.

you can imagine from an American's perspective - esp if they are financially established in places like new York,- how the math makes even less viable. Some people still do it though, but out of idealism and certainly not for the financial benefits..there is a saying- if you want to make a million in Israel, bring a million. The settlers are there because of idealism but also because there is a housing crisis in Israel (like many other countries)..as you can see from the stats, this is not due to people from USA or UK largely because the maths simply does not stack up. Israel is incredibly expensive without the pay to match and most Jewish people in UK/USA know this

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Interesting to know, thank you. I didn't realise it was so expensive there.
I have seen many many videos of the settlers and there terrible antics. All whilst being protected by the IDF
They give the normal citizens of Israel a terrible name as most who view these videos can't tell between ordinary civilians and the settlers
They terrorise the Palestinians in the west bank. I really wish Israel would step up and do something about it

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 21:28

Parkingt111 · 21/10/2023 21:06

Interesting to know, thank you. I didn't realise it was so expensive there.
I have seen many many videos of the settlers and there terrible antics. All whilst being protected by the IDF
They give the normal citizens of Israel a terrible name as most who view these videos can't tell between ordinary civilians and the settlers
They terrorise the Palestinians in the west bank. I really wish Israel would step up and do something about it

Show quote history

I do not agree with the settlements. There are two types of settlers- religious zealots who just want to cause trouble and also ordinary people who think of moving to the west bank the way a Londoner thinks of moving to Hemel Hempstead to buy a home. I know my (fairly right wing) brother in law thought that way- he asked me whether I would choose between a 2 bed flat in Tel Aviv or a 5 bed detached house in the west bank (which is apparently within driving distance to Tel aviv). I said Tel aviv obviously and he said I was silly..this was before the terror attacks. I now think I probably don't need to persuade him of the virtues of staying in a central Israeli city albeit in an apartment.

But it was a very much a similar kind of thing that many Brits have said to me when I chose to buy a 2 bed flat in London as opposed to a larger house outside London..I know this can be hard to believe but many people including Israelis look at what options they have. The government is obviously wrong for even making this an option and this is on them.

Israel is very expensive and unlike many expensive places like new York and London it doesn't have the same kind of job opportunities. Rental sector is unregulated and you need 30% deposit to buy a home. And then there is the conflict. It is said that despite all the feel good Aliyah stories, many new immigrants from Western backgrounds (as much as 70%) leave within 5 years despite loving the country. Another issue could also be that many new immigrants like my sister's in law form families with Jewish men from different countries..if you look up waiting times for a spouse visa for America, the waiting time is currently 16 months, there are financial requirements (not super high, but they still exist) and most western countries don't have super easy immigration rules even for spouses of citizens. Many Jewish people tend to have international marriages as it is harder to find suitable spouses within your own small community so Israel is a good place as all Jews can settle there. I mean it works another way too if a British Jew married a Thai woman and couldn't fulfil the spouse visa requirements in the UK for whatever reason, they could theoretically move to Israel under the law of return if they wanted to

The people who stay are those who can't easily go to a western country, like Russians or Ukrainians. Or descendants of Jews from Muslim countries who don't have European or American passports. They truly have nowhere they can easily go.

upinaballoon · 21/10/2023 21:29

garlicandsapphires · 20/10/2023 09:13

Following as also confused.
On a very simple level my understanding is that the conflict over land goes back to Abraham who had two sons, Isaac (with his wife Sarah - this is the Jewish line) and Ishmael (with Sarah's servant Hagar - this is the Arab line) Abraham was given the Promised land - modern day Israel.

I know that doesn't answer the question but it's helpful to remember (I think)

I know you wrote this more than a day ago, but, yes, Abraham's the one to come and sort it out. I said that some years ago.

Coughingdodger · 21/10/2023 22:10

The past few posts are very interesting. I didn’t know that.

squidnames · 21/10/2023 22:23

@lavender2023 as someone who used to live in Singapore you're really off the mark in comparing the two countries, I can tell you that. Singapore had independence from Malaysia, the UN didn't step in and carve a nation for them. I can see the point you're trying to make, you're just not using the right example.

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 22:59

squidnames · 21/10/2023 22:23

@lavender2023 as someone who used to live in Singapore you're really off the mark in comparing the two countries, I can tell you that. Singapore had independence from Malaysia, the UN didn't step in and carve a nation for them. I can see the point you're trying to make, you're just not using the right example.

I was born Singaporean. Singapore has often been referred to as the Israel of Southeast Asia, often by our neighbours. Of course there are differences in how each country was found, but the point still stands- both are modern states where their very existence is an accident of history but their history of 50-70 years means that they have long established themselves.

Btw most Singaporeans know Israel is a legit country because when Singapore was first founded, our leaders sent out messages of help to 10 countries to ask for help establishing their military. Israel was the only country which responded..the Singapore armed forces is built on the model of the IDF. How can Israel not be a country when it assisted in another country's nation building?

squidnames · 21/10/2023 23:18

@lavender2023 Singapore is referred to as the Israel of SE Asia, mainly because of its a geographical location, surrounded by Muslim countries. Though TBH I've heard it referred to as the Switzerland of Asia more often.
I studied in Singapore from Pri 3 to my time in NUS so I know of the Sg govt collaboration with the Israelis (they helped set up the military + the NS trainings).
The current issue goes beyond Israel's legitimacy as a country, it's the occupation and treatment of Gaza and West Bank that has caused this long conflict. I for one, do not question its legitimacy, can't say the same for other posters.
Also, Singapore has a Muslim population no? I reckon they'd have a very different opinion on this matter from the Chinese majority/Singapore govt.

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 23:26

squidnames · 21/10/2023 23:18

@lavender2023 Singapore is referred to as the Israel of SE Asia, mainly because of its a geographical location, surrounded by Muslim countries. Though TBH I've heard it referred to as the Switzerland of Asia more often.
I studied in Singapore from Pri 3 to my time in NUS so I know of the Sg govt collaboration with the Israelis (they helped set up the military + the NS trainings).
The current issue goes beyond Israel's legitimacy as a country, it's the occupation and treatment of Gaza and West Bank that has caused this long conflict. I for one, do not question its legitimacy, can't say the same for other posters.
Also, Singapore has a Muslim population no? I reckon they'd have a very different opinion on this matter from the Chinese majority/Singapore govt.

I do not disagree with the fact that Israel has made many mistakes esp with regard to west bank and gaza strip. I do not agree with the current government bombing gaza civilians, in fact I had an argument with my family in Israel over this (they agree with the bombings) because they feel they are terrified and it is easy for me to moralize as I am sitting pretty in London. They weren't like that before they moved, I think living in the middle east changes people. Living in a conflict zone for years day in day out changes people. Of course not everyone in israel thinks this way but a lot of people have been traumatized.

If the shoe was on the other foot though, the Palestinian leaders may have acted in a far worse way (based on the Hamas atrocities). This is not representative of the Palestinian people, just like netanyahu is not representative of the Israeli people (80% of whom believe he is unfit).

It is such a difficult issue, I am just glad I don't live in the middle east...

Parkingt111 · 21/10/2023 23:37

@lavender2023 there's an article today on the BBC that highlights how people in Israel are being arrested or losing their jobs for expressing that they are against the bombing or even if they have liked a post that reflects this.
I was quite shocked to hear as on all these threads I keep hearing over and over again that Israel is a democracy so where is the free speech?

Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?

Parkingt111 · 21/10/2023 23:39

@lavender2023 maybe thats why your family agree fully on the bombings
It seems that they are not allowed to express any other opinion on it regardless

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67181582.amp

Israeli Arabs arrested over Gaza social media posts - BBC News

Influencer Dalal Abu Amneh is among those to be held in a crackdown on Gaza-linked content.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67181582.amp

lavender2023 · 21/10/2023 23:42

Parkingt111 · 21/10/2023 23:39

@lavender2023 maybe thats why your family agree fully on the bombings
It seems that they are not allowed to express any other opinion on it regardless

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67181582.amp

Goodness! They are Jewish though and this was on a private Facebook family chat. But I suppose it makes sense, if there are such consequences, it's better to just adopt the default opinion rather than constantly having to police your own thoughts and words. I can totally understand that plus it's not like being a free speech advocate at this time is going to save any Palestinian lives..

My DH made a donation of £150 to UNICEF for the Palestinian children. His sister kept telling him it was going to go to Hamas. Lol.

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/10/2023 23:53

NorthStarRising · 20/10/2023 10:53

What i can't understand is how when the Jews were treated so terribly in the war with their homes and possessions stolen from them by the nazis, they feel it is their right to do that to the Palestinian people.

On the back of millenia of persecution and forced expulsions, it fostered a mindset that the only people that care about the Jews are the Jews.
That they are the only ones who can keep their people safe, and that the protestations of other nations are heard but not acted on, because the motivations and sincerity and promises are doubted. That when Jews were oppressed, expelled and genocidal murder was thrust upon them, no nation stood up for them. So they became self-reliant. USA can ask, as can the UN, but Israel will forge its own path.
Abused people sometimes become abusers.

The most insightful post I have seen since this all hit the news. They will do anything and everything in their power to prevent a repeat of their history, even if it means treating others as they were treated.